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clark.w.griswald

Joined: 06 Dec 2004
Posts: 2056

Posted: Sun Sep 18, 2005 6:59 am Post subject:

Chris Smith wrote:

If possible, I'd say it's better to stick with one school if you can. They are more likely to invest in you as a teacher and your teaching hours should be more stable.

That is certainly good advice.

My earlier post may have given you the wrong idea. While it is legal and possible to secure a second job if you really want to make more money, it certainly isn't the norm. For all the reasons so far outlined in this thread including contractual agreements not to work outside of the school and class schedule clashes, Chris's advice to concentrate your efforts on finding a single good employer is really worth heeding.

teacha wrote:

MOST SCHOOLS will make you sign something saying you wont tutor or work elsewhere sometimes for up to a yr and a half after employment with them in the same county!

Exclusion clauses like this is are certainly not the norm. While it is not uncommon for an employment contract to contain a clause prohibiting outside work, exclusitivity clauses pertaining to what you can and can't do after you finish your contract are not common and in many cases not enforceable.

I think that the clauses prohibiting outside work are a carry over from the past when teachers could not legally have more than one employer. The employer who sponsors your ARC is legally responsible for you during your time in Taiwan, and if you are caught working illegally the legal employer also gets punished. So schools have traditionally had clauses about not taking on work outside the school to protect themselves.

I have noticed that nowadays schools who are only offering minimal hours will often welcome teachers to work elsewhere provided that the outside work does not interfere with the work at that school.

teacha

Joined: 25 Aug 2005
Posts: 186

Posted: Sun Sep 18, 2005 8:48 am Post subject:

We idsagree. When the laws change in taiwan, the contracts tend to reflect the more favorable law for the school. E.g. what suits them more and they swear up and down that the law is followed by their contract. Normally you will see a noncompetitive agreement in a contract. Clark is not actively looking for jobs so he has less of a gauge on this reality than someone who is, like moi!

clark.w.griswald

Joined: 06 Dec 2004
Posts: 2056

Posted: Sun Sep 18, 2005 10:04 am Post subject:

teacha wrote:

When the laws change in taiwan, the contracts tend to reflect the more favorable law for the school. E.g. what suits them more and they swear up and down that the law is followed by their contract.

Based upon fact or your opinion. If it is based upon fact then please provide the fact that supports this. That would be cases that show what you suggest to be true.

teacha wrote:

Normally you will see a noncompetitive agreement in a contract. Clark is not actively looking for jobs so he has less of a gauge on this reality than someone who is, like moi!

You may like to outline what exactly you are referring to when you say 'non-competitive' agreement.

I have already stated that it is quite common for an employer to prohibit you from obtaining work outside their school during the term of the contract. Having said that, it is becoming clear that more and more schools are willing to allow teachers to work outside provided that there is no interference.

If you are referring to clauses pertaining to post contract employment then I disagree. These are not common place, and even when they are instated, they are not going to be legally enforceable as they are poorly written and would be deemed unreasonable.

teacha

Joined: 25 Aug 2005
Posts: 186

Posted: Sun Sep 18, 2005 12:39 pm Post subject:

Quote:

clark.w.griswald wrote:

teacha wrote:

When the laws change in taiwan, the contracts tend to reflect the more favorable law for the school. E.g. what suits them more and they swear up and down that the law is followed by their contract.

Based upon fact or your opinion. If it is based upon fact then please provide the fact that supports this. That would be cases that show what you suggest to be true.

Who are you to tell me to provide anything? YOU provide me with proof that you speak from Fact. Then I will quote it and show how you are being unreasonable and there is a more realistic truth than the explanation you propose. Show me your facts, I would like to paly devil's advocate with them if you will indulge me. Also, let's not forget that illegal deposits and contract breakage penalties are the norm. One person wrote to me recently saying this: "yeah i have seen that first hand.. my girlfriend wants to leave her job but in order for her to leave they want her to pay 200, 000 nt. if you ask me thats nuts , what do you "

teacha wrote:

Normally you will see a noncompetitive agreement in a contract. Clark is not actively looking for jobs so he has less of a gauge on this reality than someone who is, like moi!

Quote:

If you are referring to clauses pertaining to post contract employment then I disagree. These are not common place, and even when they are instated, they are not going to be legally enforceable as they are poorly written and would be deemed unreasonable.

Yes but the school can terminate you at their whim and the free mediation you often tout does not fall under the category of anything other than another receptical for bribery and a foregin teacher has no legal recourse on taiwan considering the connections schools have to government and the hatred government has for foreign teachers. I know rarely teachers try, and rarely they win. The rulings are simply ignored by the schools thoug.....much like other laws, unless there are fines imposed. [/quote]

clark.w.griswald

Joined: 06 Dec 2004
Posts: 2056

Posted: Mon Sep 19, 2005 8:52 am Post subject:

teacha wrote:

Firstly, what personal experience do you have with the mediation and appeals process? Surely for your comments to have any validity they would need to be based upon something. I have personal experience with this process and I was successful. I have spoken with others who were also successful and places such as forumosa are a good record of people who have had their own wins. I know of one guy who wasn't successful in his appeal, but he finally admitted that it was because he was guilty of what he had been accused of.

Clearly the only people who complain about the system are people such as yourself who have a distinct lack of understanding of the system. If you haven't been through the process then how is that you know that it doesn't work?

Secondly, you seem to be suggesting that bribery may be a way for schools to deal with the CLA. What do you base that accusation upon? Do you have some personal experience where this was the case, or are you just continuing the myth as it is convenient to do so? It doesn't make any sense really. Any 'bribe' would be more than the fines anyway, so why would schools bother paying a 'bribe' when it would be cheaper and easier to just pay a fine? The workers at the CLA would be risking their jobs in accepting bribes. We all know that some government workers here, as well as in every country, do accept bribes, but generally only when they have something to gain personally from the taking of the bribe. As the bribe would need to be more than the fine, I am wondering why you think that schools would benefit from this?

Clearly bribery is not a concern.

Finally, if the you were correct and the government hated foreigners so much then why would they let us come here in the first place? Also why would they streamline processes to make things easier for us? An example would be that when I came here years ago, you had to leave the country to renew your visa, so that meant leaving the country every year. Nowadays, the government permits us to do this within the country. Surely that is to our benefit not theirs, so if they hated us as much as you suggest they do, then why would they make these changes in our favor?

teacha wrote:

I know rarely teachers try, and rarely they win. The rulings are simply ignored by the schools thoug.....much like other laws, unless there are fines imposed.

Fortunately more and more teachers are questioning decisions made, and as these teachers are more informed, they are becoming more successful in their claims. The biggest problem I see within the government here is an apathy toward the rights of people full stop - regardless of whether they are foreigners or locals. The simple reason that there seems to be a bias toward locals is that locals are more easily able to fight the fight. As foreigners come to know their rights, and as the government continues to recognize that we want to exercise these rights, it has become apparent that we can be as successful as locals.

Aristotle

Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Posts: 1388
Location: Taiwan

Posted: Mon Sep 19, 2005 9:24 am Post subject:

Wages on Taiwan continue to deteriorate island wide in nearly all sectors. The overall decrease in students on Taiwan as a direct result of an aging population in conjunction with the ongoing recession plus widespread corruption and discrimination coupled with over-regulation by the Ministry of Education are just a few of the causes. If you are looking for a unique Taiwanese cultural experience this is the place for you. You won't get rich but you can survive if you play your cards right. Good luck! A.

Taylor

Joined: 24 Oct 2003
Posts: 384
Location: Texas/Taiwan

Posted: Mon Sep 19, 2005 3:21 pm Post subject:

According to teacha:

Quote:

I think 'teacha' needs to take a course in basic grammar. Anyone who writes 56-word sentences can't be trusted. Cool

Taylor
Kaohsiung

teacha

Joined: 25 Aug 2005
Posts: 186

Posted: Mon Sep 19, 2005 8:48 pm Post subject:

xoxoxoxoxoxoxoxoxo

JZer

Joined: 16 Jan 2005
Posts: 3898
Location: Pittsburgh

Posted: Tue Sep 20, 2005 6:37 pm Post subject:

Quote:

I think that the clauses prohibiting outside work are a carry over from the past when teachers could not legally have more than one employer. The employer who sponsors your ARC is legally responsible for you during your time in Taiwan, and if you are caught working illegally the legal employer also gets punished. So schools have traditionally had clauses about not taking on work outside the school to protect themselves.

I have noticed that nowadays schools who are only offering minimal hours will often welcome teachers to work elsewhere provided that the outside work does not interfere with the work at that school.

Well it is not that I really want to work for more than one school but I would like to earn X amount of dollars and am willing to work hard to earn that much. Why do they care so much? I will be providing someone with a service. If these services where not desired then people would not be paying me for them? Furthermore these services are not harming anyone so why care if I work a few hours for a second employeer.

teacha

Joined: 25 Aug 2005
Posts: 186

Posted: Tue Sep 20, 2005 7:12 pm Post subject:

Because they want you by the balls PERIOD.

logician

Joined: 15 Jan 2004
Posts: 70

Posted: Tue Sep 20, 2005 9:36 pm Post subject:

clark.w.griswald wrote:

teacha wrote:

Firstly, what personal experience do you have with the mediation and appeals process? Surely for your comments to have any validity they would need to be based upon something. I have personal experience with this process and I was successful. ... As foreigners come to know their rights, and as the government continues to recognize that we want to exercise these rights, it has become apparent that we can be as successful as locals.

With all due respect Clark, I think you've either gotten very lucky or else displayed a lot of natural talent for dealing with people. I think most people are *not* going to be as successful as you have been with your tactics.

Possibly this is a topic big enough for an entirely different thread, but playing by the rules and knowing your rights is *not* enough to succeed. I've gone on a bunch of interviews for the past few months trying to toe the line and know my rights. As a result, schools have realized that I'm going to be an obstacle to their law-breaking and thus have passed me over.

So, yeah, theoretically I have the right to a copy of my contract. But schools panic when I ask to see a copy of the contract in Chinese and I don't get hired. Technically, I have my rights, but that doesn't do me a whole lot of good.

I'm not going to rant at length in this thread, but I'd be happy to find some common ground and engage in a new thread suitable to that common ground.

teacha

Joined: 25 Aug 2005
Posts: 186

Posted: Tue Sep 20, 2005 11:23 pm Post subject:

logician wrote:

clark.w.griswald wrote:

teacha wrote:

Firstly, what personal experience do you have with the mediation and appeals process? Surely for your comments to have any validity they would need to be based upon something. I have personal experience with this process and I was successful. ... As foreigners come to know their rights, and as the government continues to recognize that we want to exercise these rights, it has become apparent that we can be as successful as locals.

Quote:

As Clark would point out---- you were obviously not hired for every other reason than the ones you state. You obviously have little experience in interviewing and your demeanor is very antagonistic. And how many interviews were you on exactly? Care to back up your claims with facts/numbers? What are your qualifications? Could it be that you were less qualified than other applicants? Could it be you were unkempt, unwashed, unintelligent, unattractive, unpleasant, and/or undesireable? How do you know that they planned to break the law? What laws exactly were they planning to break? Care to back up these cruel slanderous remarks with real facts? Who exactly were these schools? Care to backup your claims with real names? You are the exception to the majority of foreigners that have very little trouble working for honorable employers and I suspect the problem lies within you and not within them. The very fact that you presume they were going to break the law, spells out how mistrustfull you obviously act in interviews. People like you scare newbies from the market and really, it's a disservice and I am here to discuss facts, something which you have not done. All you have done is slander the good people of the nation I love. I think you should consider teaching elsewhere.

JZer

Joined: 16 Jan 2005
Posts: 3898
Location: Pittsburgh

Posted: Tue Sep 20, 2005 11:28 pm Post subject:

Quote:

I wonder if I just keep my mouth shut and show up to work whether I can get away with whatever. To me it seems that maybe one should just mind their own business and obey their employer and then they will be about to stick it out.

clark.w.griswald

Joined: 06 Dec 2004
Posts: 2056

Posted: Wed Sep 21, 2005 1:16 am Post subject:

JZer wrote:

Well it is not that I really want to work for more than one school but I would like to earn X amount of dollars and am willing to work hard to earn that much.

I think that this is the crux of the issue. In the past teachers could secure one position offering almost as many hours as the teacher wanted. With increased competition and more and more schools, the actual workload at each school has dropped such that schools can only offer teachers 14-18 hours a week. Assuming an average wage of NTD600 per hour, it becomes clear that this is not really enough.

This is not the schools problem though, and schools need to deal with this as best they can.

As a result, teachers who want to earn a lot of money tend to find that they need to take on work at more than one location.

JZer wrote:

Why do they care so much? I will be providing someone with a service. If these services where not desired then people would not be paying me for them? Furthermore these services are not harming anyone so why care if I work a few hours for a second employeer.

A reasonable school won't care, just as a reasonable teacher will work with the school in this regard.

As teachers it can be difficult for us to see things from the schools point of view but let me try to explain what problems the schools face that may encourage them to include an non-competition clause.

The biggest concern for schools is the fact that they can only employ a defined number of foreign teachers. They may find a situation whereby they have additional classes opening but cannot employ a new teacher to teach these as they have already reached their work permit quota. If their current teachers are all committed to jobs elsewhere at those times then this will be an impediment to their business. Of course, schools cannot expect teachers to sit around unpaid on the off chance that new classes may open in the future, unfortunately the school can't forsee what will happen in the future either.

Also of concern to schools would be the fact that a teacher may use knowledge gained in one school, during their teaching in another, most likely competing school. This is particularly true of schools that provide training and curriculum. This comes at a cost to a school and they don't want this information taken away and used by their teachers in other schools.

I can understand all of the above and don't think that schools are being unreasonable. They are just trying to run their own businesses, and the fact is that if they fail to attract enough students then the business will fail and the foreign teacher will lose their job.

The problem is that teachers have a right to earn a decent living, and if one school can't offer that then we need to go to one that can, or find two schools that are willing to share. I am not suggesting that it is easy, however I am confident, based upon my own experiences, that many schools are willing to negotiate.

logician wrote:

I think that I am determined but fair. I try to understand what the school wants and how I can work in with that and still get what I want.

For example, if I were offered a job that started out with 14 hours spread over Monday, Wednesday, and Friday, with a possibility of additional hours at a later date I would negotiate. I would guarantee that school that I would be available for additional hours on those days, but would explain upfront that I would be seeking work at a second school on Tuesday, Thursday, and Saturday in order to make the living that I want. I wouldn't demand this of the school and lay down the law, but would instead explain that if they were willing to pay me more per hour to make up for the fact that the number of hours were not great, then I would be able to guarantee them additional days that I would be available for them.

Not every school would agree, and I would need to accept their decision. If I felt that it was a good job and that the school had legitimate reasons for not agreeing with my requests then I would accept this and decide whether or not I wanted to work with them. If I felt that the school was being unreasonable then I would take that as an indication of potential problems in the future.

Of course for all of this to be possible you need to first attract the school so that they want you enough to negotiate in the first place. Far too many teachers still go into interviews with a feeling that they are the only person and that they will get the job, and get it on their terms or walk. Schools know this, and just like everyone they aren't going to bend over and take it up the ....

logician wrote:

I've gone on a bunch of interviews for the past few months trying to toe the line and know my rights. As a result, schools have realized that I'm going to be an obstacle to their law-breaking and thus have passed me over.

This is very true.

Of course if you walk in and make demands from the start then the school may see you as being unreasonable. That said, you shouldn't sign a contract that you know is going to cause problems in the future. It is a trade off and you need to learn how trade things off. If you can't, or if you don't have anything to really offer in return, then you may have to accept a less than perfect deal, but you should never accept a bad deal.

For example, once you have shown that you are worth the money you are asking for you can discuss other issues. I personally wouldn't complain about any illegal clause in a contract such as deposit clauses. The fact is that they are not legally enforceable anyway so don't get caught up in that sort of stuff at the start. Sort it our later as you know that the CLA will back you up even if the school doesn't agree.

Another example would be non-competition clauses. If you really like the job or you really need the job even though it wasn't exactly what you wanted then take it. The non-competition part really applies to work at other schools, but doesn't really take into account private students. I wouldn't openly publicise the fact that I was taking on privates and I would never let it affect the school. If the school offered me more hours at the time I had a private I wouldn't blink but would re-arrange my private to fit within my new schedule. Too many teachers call attention to this outside work by refusing these extra hours, and this is one of the reasons that schools are so anti-outside work in some cases. It is easy for the teacher to say no to an extra hour or two particularly if they can earn more elsewhere, but it is not so easy for the school to reschedule the class or find an alternative teacher.

logician wrote:

So, yeah, theoretically I have the right to a copy of my contract. But schools panic when I ask to see a copy of the contract in Chinese and I don't get hired. Technically, I have my rights, but that doesn't do me a whole lot of good.

Quite honestly, any school that won't let you see the contract should be avoided. That is a pretty clear warning sign in my opinion.

In the case of a school not giving you a copy of the contract well I would ask for one. If they didn't give me one and instead gave me reasons why, I would accept that for then if I really wanted the job and pursue it at a later date once I had started working there. I would just broach the situation after a few weeks and say that I needed a copy for tax reasons back home or something.

teacha wrote:

As Clark would point out---- you were obviously not hired for every other reason than the ones you state. You obviously have little experience in interviewing and your demeanor is very antagonistic.

Actually not. I can understand logicians problem, but they can be avoided. Don�t appear too demanding upfront. Raise questions about things if you they are important to you, but don�t demand stuff.

teacha wrote:

Care to back up your claims with facts/numbers?

No facts or numbers are required as Logician is clearly speaking from personal experience. I have no doubt that if you walked into and interview and spurted out all the stuff that I have raised on this board that you wouldn�t get the job. It is a case of knowing what to say and when. It is important to know your rights, but I think that very few of us are indispensable to a school and therefore we can�t tell schools how it is. We can only work things in our favor to ensure that we best protect ourselves.

teacha wrote:

Could it be you were unkempt, unwashed, unintelligent, unattractive, unpleasant, and/or undesireable?

Although I doubt that this was an issue in logician�s case, I am surprised at how unprofessional some foreigners are when they interview for teaching work in Taiwan. I am not expecting a suit and �Yes sir� or �No sir� but I do expect a certain level of respect for the fact that it is a job interview and that this requires a certain level of professionalism.

teacha wrote:

You are the exception to the majority of foreigners that have very little trouble working for honorable employers and I suspect the problem lies within you and not within them.

Not at all. I have been saying for months that the market is more competitive now than ever before. Foreign teachers now need to �win� a position rather than past experiences where you could just show up to an interview.

I do believe that the majority of employers are honest. They often do things differently, and lack the understanding of relevant laws that they should have, but in most cases it is clear that they do not intentionally make mistakes nor mislead teachers.

teacha wrote:

People like you scare newbies from the market and really, it's a disservice and I am here to discuss facts, something which you have not done. All you have done is slander the good people of the nation I love. I think you should consider teaching elsewhere.

I think that logician raised a very good point. The points that he or she raised are not indicative of problems with Taiwan�s society or employers, but are a fact of finding work in Taiwan. The points are very relevant for teachers especially those new to Taiwan. Hopefully the comments by logician and myself have helped clarify this situation, and unfortunately the post by Teacha is yet another waste of space as it doesn�t really offer anything to help the readers of this forum.

JZer

Joined: 16 Jan 2005
Posts: 3898
Location: Pittsburgh

Posted: Wed Sep 21, 2005 11:56 pm Post subject:

clark.w.griswald, Thanks for the advice. I think I will apply for some jobs and if I find some employers that are interested in hiring me then I will bring up the issue of a second job. Hopefully if they are interested then they can understand my needs and I will tell them that their job will come first and that if they need me to teach extra hours that I will make myself available. I am really trying to establish a good financial base and am willing to work hard to do so. I will put in the time to make sure that everyone of my lessons is good no matter if I am teaching 20 or 30 hours a week. Well anyways I hope to see you all in Taiwan soon. I should arrive on March 1.

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