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Cdaniels
Joined: 21 Mar 2005
Posts: 663
Location: Dunwich, Massachusetts
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QatarChic
Joined: 06 May 2005
Posts: 445
Location: Qatar
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 Posted: Sat Sep 24, 2005 4:31 pm Post subject: |
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Interesting article  !
Although most people are learning English- I think Chinese is still being overlooked as a major language in today's world. I studied Spanish/Italian at Uni- but in the past few years I wish that I had studied Chinese instead of Italian as I think China will be major player in the world.... |
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Stephen Jones
Joined: 21 Feb 2003
Posts: 4124
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| Posted: Sat Sep 24, 2005 9:33 pm Post subject: |
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A very fair article apart from one glaring misuse of linguistic terms.
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| Second, however complicated English may be as a literary language, it is fantastically simple as a pidgin.In Turkic languages, to take one comparison, one must master the grammar before one can say practically anything at all. |
All pidgins are equually simple (in fact most of them have the same limited grammar. If one had mastered Turkish grammar one would not be speaking pidgin Turkish but Turkish. Turkish speakers would probably find it more difficult to understand pidgin Turkish than English speakers pidgin English, but I the reason would be lack of practice. |
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dmb
Joined: 12 Feb 2003
Posts: 8397
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| Posted: Sun Sep 25, 2005 1:33 pm Post subject: |
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| Turkish speakers would probably find it more difficult to understand pidgin Turkish than English speakers pidgin English |
Why do you think this? Turkish is a very flexible language, word order can be played around with. any foreigner who learns basic Turkish grammar can be understood the length and breadth of the country. admitably the accent/grammar of South East Turkey takes a bit to get used as they ignore the grammar rules of Istanbul Turkish(considered the best) |
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thelmadatter
Joined: 31 Mar 2003
Posts: 1212
Location: in el Distrito Federal x fin!
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| Posted: Sun Sep 25, 2005 4:05 pm Post subject: inaccuracies |
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As this is not a linguistics journal, I cut the FT some slack on the use of terms like "pidgin" although I agree with Stephen that all pidgins are "simple" I also found it curious that the article called English a "hybrid" of Romance and Germanic. While it is true that over 65% of the entire English vocabulary is non-Germanic and borrows heavily from Romance and Latin (and Greek), grammtically it is still very much a Germanic language. Its very basic vocabulary (the ~2000 most-often-used words) is also overwhelmingly Germanic.
This might be a perpetuation of the myth that English is somehow a Romance language and therefore having some hereditary position from Rome. Its a common misconception.
But I found the article interesting as well and saved it, perhaps for future classes. One point that could have been made stronger is that lingua francas (or is it "linguas francas") attain their position purely through social/political reasons, not linguistic ones. Attempts to create a lingua franca not associated with a dominant country/culture, e.g. Esperanto, have failed. I believe this happens because language and culture are intrinsically linked and perhaps at least part of the reason Esperanto failed is because it "felt empty," or devoid of context.
As to whether English's dominance is "bad" or "good," I venture to say that the global economy of today demands a lingua franca, be it English or something else. No matter what it is, it will have an impact on other languages. The might of Rome has affected English even to the this day; being educated, in large part, means dominating the heavily Latin/Romance "hard words" in school.
As for the loss of the world's languages, it has been happening as long as there has been contact between peoples and the phenomenon grows as technology facilitates that contact. The arrival of the Spanish and the Portuguese, and later the French and the English to the New World decimated many peoples and languages. Who knows how many pre-Indo-European languages were wiped out with the spread of the ancestors of most peoples from England to India? I know no remedy for this. The simple fact is that when people have to live with one another, they need to communicate. Saying this, I have to also say that I do not believe that English will completely dominate the world. It may be the first global lingua franca, but I seriously doubt it will be the last. Empires rise and fall, and when America's power and influence declines enough, some other empire will take its place. Will there ever be one, true global language? I don't know, but I sincerely doubt it. |
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ls650
Joined: 10 May 2003
Posts: 3484
Location: British Columbia
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| Posted: Sun Sep 25, 2005 11:21 pm Post subject: Re: inaccuracies |
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| thelmadatter wrote: |
| I also found it curious that the article called English a "hybrid" of Romance and Germanic. |
If you don't call English a 'hybrid', what do you call it? |
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Guy Courchesne
Joined: 10 Mar 2003
Posts: 9650
Location: Mexico City
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| Posted: Sun Sep 25, 2005 11:22 pm Post subject: |
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| If you don't call English a 'hybrid', what do you call it? |
I've always thought that 'b@stard' was an adequate description rooted in historical fact and contemporary use.  |
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ls650
Joined: 10 May 2003
Posts: 3484
Location: British Columbia
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| Posted: Sun Sep 25, 2005 11:33 pm Post subject: |
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| Perhaps 'mish-mash' or 'hodge-podge' might also be a suitable description? |
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Aramas
Joined: 13 Feb 2004
Posts: 874
Location: Slightly left of Centre
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| Posted: Sun Sep 25, 2005 11:51 pm Post subject: |
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How about 'dog's breakfast'?  |
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Justin Trullinger
Joined: 28 Jan 2005
Posts: 3110
Location: Seoul, South Korea and Myanmar for a bit
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| Posted: Mon Sep 26, 2005 12:37 am Post subject: |
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| A #%$@ing mess. |
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Sara Avalon
Joined: 25 Feb 2004
Posts: 254
Location: On the Prowl
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| Posted: Mon Sep 26, 2005 1:43 am Post subject: |
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C. Daniels, this post is very unclear. I assume you're tired and rushed or else you would have given specific instructions on how to click the link.  |
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ls650
Joined: 10 May 2003
Posts: 3484
Location: British Columbia
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| Posted: Mon Sep 26, 2005 2:32 am Post subject: |
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Pardon me, but could you two take your little spat to PMs?
Thanks... |
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Cdaniels
Joined: 21 Mar 2005
Posts: 663
Location: Dunwich, Massachusetts
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| Posted: Mon Sep 26, 2005 10:07 pm Post subject: That wouldn't be nearly as entertaining!!! |
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I don't think I know Sara well enough.  I've tried to make up on the thread she started.
Easy to pick up a little, quite difficult to master. Mastering English could be taken as a sign of intellectual ability and/or education. Perhaps there is a "snob factor" working in English's favor?
Last edited by Cdaniels on Tue Sep 27, 2005 12:18 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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dmb
Joined: 12 Feb 2003
Posts: 8397
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| Posted: Mon Sep 26, 2005 10:16 pm Post subject: |
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| easy to pick up a little, quite difficult to master. |
And that's the native speakers |
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stillnosheep
Joined: 01 Mar 2004
Posts: 2068
Location: eslcafe
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| Posted: Tue Sep 27, 2005 2:36 pm Post subject: |
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| Guy Courchesne wrote: |
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| If you don't call English a 'hybrid', what do you call it? |
I've always thought that 'b@stard' was an adequate description rooted in historical fact and contemporary use. |
What is the German for 'b@stard'?
Interestingly the circumstances leading to the hybridisation of old English (roughly to be equated with Old German) enabled its rapid development and simplification and helped it assume its current state of ubiquity. It is generally the richer and more highly educated strata of society who exercise a conservative influence upon the development of a language. A language becomes codified as the language of the court, judiciary and clergy etc, as well as by conservative ideas of 'correctness' in general. In England these classes tended to speak French or Latin leaving the mass of the population free to simplify the old grammatical structures much faster than their German cousins. So, to take one example, it was goodbye the multiple permutations of 4 cases, 3 genders and the singular/plural distinction:(Der/Die/Das/Die//Dem/Der/Das/Der usf usw) and hello to 'the' as well as to a, this, that, those, these, any, not any, etc instead of up to 24 instances of each.
English spelling may have its quirks but the basic grammatical knowledge needed to produce ok spoken English is relatively simple to acquire thanks to the heroic simplifying work done by the plebian masses free from having to drag the the linguistic millstone of their poncey French and Latin speaking betters around with them! |
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