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clark.w.griswald
Joined: 06 Dec 2004
Posts: 2056
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 Posted: Mon Sep 26, 2005 2:09 am Post subject: Teacher deportation order under appeal |
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I don't often start my own threads here, but I thought that this case was an interesting one considering that a few members of this forum continue to claim that foreign teachers in Taiwan do not have rights, when they clearly do.
Here is the story that is being presented on another discussion forum:
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I was working in a buxiban marking exam papers 3 months ago. The place was raided by the foreign affairs police and I was taken to the police station to be interviewed. The cousin of the owner of the buxiban came with me to act as an interpretor. We told the police that I was just visiting a friend and that he asked me to help but I didn't receive any payment. At the end of the interview both the police chief and the owners cousin told me there was no problem and that it would all go away.
I quit the school shortly after this and recently started working in another school who applied for and got me an ARC. Today i recieved a letter from the police saying that I have 14 days to leave Taiwan because of the problem in the buxiban that happened 3 months ago. |
So, by the teachers own admission he was caught working illegally. Despite the explanation that he gave it is obvious that the police considered him to be working illegally.
It seems unfair that the teacher was apparently released under the impression that all was sorted, only to find out three months later that he was to be deported. I won't try to defend this practice as I do feel that it is unfair to act so late after the incident, but there may be some reason that we are unaware of. Maybe a different agency has acted upon the information from the police in requiring the teacher to leave, or maybe the police are just going back and reviewing past cases and treating these in a much more definitive way.
It is unfair but I don't see that it is unjust. The teacher did afterall get caught working illegally. He should have been deported at the time but for some reason he wasn't. My best guess is that there is a change in the wind as a result of police concerns that too many people are working illegally. Such delayed punishment is certainly inconvenient, but not unjust as the law does not state that a deportation should occur immediately, it just states that you can be deported.
Most interesting for me however is the following:
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I manged to make an appeal against the deportation order. But it was a painful, painful affair and there's no way I could have done without my Taiwanese girlfriends help. In total we submitted around 20 pages of documents most of which had to be translated from English to Chinese.
I have also applied for a extension to stay in Taiwan while my appeal is heard. However this takes up to 5 days for a decision to be made and I only have 3 working days left. So today I went to the labour affairs office and got a stamp to show that I had submitted an appeal and I had requested an extenion.
I took the stamp to the FAP in Banqiao and they have given me another 14 days to stay. |
So here we have a case where a teacher is given a deportation order for working illegally, yet is given the right to appeal the order, and at least three government agencies have assisted the foreign individual in his endeavor.
This seems to vindicate my stance that we do have rights, but unlike back home, we need to pursue our rights here. I have no doubt that had this person just accepted the order then he would no longer be in Taiwan. I applaud him for standing up for his rights, even though as he states it has been difficult making the appeal. I believe that no matter the outcome of his appeal, he has clearly helped us all by proving that there is an appeals process.
He was granted the right to appeal. Then the CLA granted a stay on the deportation order enabling him to stay here until the appeals process is over (a similar thing happened in the case of Scott Ezel). Finally, the FAP have granted him a visa extension for this period of time also. So each of the government agencies involved clearly has the power to enable us to exercise our rights, and these rights are clearly ours to be exercised.
Without wanting to nix his appeal, I am not confident that he will get the result that he is seeking. I do however wish him the best, and I will update this thread with the outcome as soon as it is known.
To those who have repeatedly claimed that we foreigners don't have rights in Taiwan it now seems pretty clear that we do! |
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Ki
Joined: 23 Jul 2004
Posts: 475
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| Posted: Mon Sep 26, 2005 3:51 am Post subject: |
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| Maybe because he quit his school shortly after that the school then decided that it wasn't worthwhile for them to pay the requisite bribe to prevent his deportation. |
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clark.w.griswald
Joined: 06 Dec 2004
Posts: 2056
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| Posted: Mon Sep 26, 2005 5:33 am Post subject: |
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| Ki wrote: |
| Maybe because he quit his school shortly after that the school then decided that it wasn't worthwhile for them to pay the requisite bribe to prevent his deportation. |
Maybe. But I don't think so.
There have been three reported cases in recent weeks about people who have been caught working illegally, being given deportation orders sometime after the fact.
It seems pretty obvious to me that the government has simply decided to enforce the law, and as these people are already on record from before they are the easiest to deal with first.
As I say, it is very unfortunate that there was a delay as these people would have of course thought that every thing had been resolved, but nevertheless the government has a right to deport those caught working illegally and it seems that this is exactly what they are doing. |
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Aristotle
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Posts: 1388
Location: Taiwan
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| Posted: Mon Sep 26, 2005 10:27 am Post subject: |
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Being allowed to file an appeal to the same police authority who issued the non judicial sentence in the first place, executed without a trial or judicial oversight is not exercising your legal right.
It is an exercise on futility, blatant discrimination and a direct violation of your rights.
Your day in court is your right and one that is forbidden to you (along with many others) by the occupational government on Taiwan because of your race, nationality or religion.
Non Chinese nationals have no rights on Taiwan when a notoriously corrupt and abusive police authority has the ability to arbitrarily sentence or remove you from your place of residence without judicial oversight.
Naruwan!
A.
Last edited by Aristotle on Thu Sep 29, 2005 9:48 am; edited 1 time in total |
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clark.w.griswald
Joined: 06 Dec 2004
Posts: 2056
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| Posted: Tue Sep 27, 2005 1:36 am Post subject: |
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| Aristotle wrote: |
| Being allowed to file an appeal to the same police authority who issued the non judicial sentence in the first place, executed without a trial or judicial oversight is not exercising your legal right. |
The legislation is very clear. If you breach your visa conditions then your right to remain in the country may be revoked through the cancellation of your visa. There is no need for the courts to be involved in this process.
| Aristotle wrote: |
| Your day in court is your right and one that is forbidden to you (along with many others) by the occupational government on Taiwan because of your race, nationality or religion. |
Where does it state that you cannot pursue the matter through the courts if you are unhappy with the outcome of the appeals process? Nowhere, because you do have this right.
In going to court you would however have to have a case. What would you suggest would be the case that the foreigner could present in his attempt to have the appeal decision overturned?
Aristotle always makes a song and dance about not having these rights when we clearly do, but what he seems to overlook is the simple fact that if you are guilty as charged then you are guilty. The police can prove through documentation and statements that you were doing something that you were not permitted to be doing and were therefore in breach of your visa conditions. This is an automatic deportation. If you want to appeal the process then you would need to show the court why you shouldn't be deported. So Aristotle, what would the reason be?
| Aristotle wrote: |
| Non Chinese nationals have no rights on Taiwan when a notoriously corrupt and abusive police authority has the ability to arbitrarily execute a sentence or remove you from your place of residence without judicial oversight. |
Aristotle if you want to keep banging your head against a brick wall when there is an open door right next to you then feel free.
You have been saying for years that we foreigners have no rights here, and I have been disagreeing with you. I have provided many cases where we foreigners have exercised our rights including my own personal experiences. You chose to work here illegally and in doing so you chose not to accept the responsibilities that come with acting within the law such as paying taxes. Equally you were choosing to place yourself outside the law and outside the realm of protection afforded to legal workers. So if your personal experiences lead you to believe that we have no rights here in Taiwan then you are wrong. Illegal workers and illegal immigrants have only basic rights, but us legal workers have rights equal to those of local citizens.
In all this time you have never once provided us all with a single case that shows us a foreign teacher being refused his or her rights. Yet you continue to pursue the same old line which is indicative of your agenda. You have continued to suggest that Taiwan is a lawless, corrupt, and morally bankrupt society, but you have repeatedly failed to actually provide any evidence of this. Sure there are corrupt people here just as there are in every country of the world, but that does not make the whole country a corrupt one. |
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Ki
Joined: 23 Jul 2004
Posts: 475
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| Posted: Tue Sep 27, 2005 6:04 am Post subject: |
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| Okay, so everyone, police included, know that he is guilty but was he 'proved' to be guilty? I know we are splitting straws here but both O.J. and Michael got off too didn't they. Was he originally found to be not guilty and then the police changed their mind or was it an outcome pending view for three months? The school and the teacher said to the police that he was only visiting and didn't admit to anything, except to the voluntary labour I guess. Just glad that it wasn't me. |
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clark.w.griswald
Joined: 06 Dec 2004
Posts: 2056
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| Posted: Tue Sep 27, 2005 10:14 am Post subject: |
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| Ki wrote: |
| Okay, so everyone, police included, know that he is guilty but was he 'proved' to be guilty?...Was he originally found to be not guilty and then the police changed their mind or was it an outcome pending view for three months? The school and the teacher said to the police that he was only visiting and didn't admit to anything, except to the voluntary labour I guess. |
I don't know that I would use the term 'found guilty' as it suggests that the matter has been through the courts. He was found red handed working in contravention to the terms of his residency in Taiwan (whether he was getting paid or not he was still acting illegally).
The fact that the police didn't act until a few months after he was caught is not likely due to concerns as to whether he was guilty or not, but more likely due to a review of the whole situation which is seeing enforcement of the law in line with the law, rather than the police judging the particular circumstances of each case. |
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JZer
Joined: 16 Jan 2005
Posts: 3898
Location: Pittsburgh
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| Posted: Fri Oct 07, 2005 12:11 am Post subject: |
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Clark,
Have you heard of anyone getting deported lately that actually has an ARC? or just people that have been working completly illegally |
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clark.w.griswald
Joined: 06 Dec 2004
Posts: 2056
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| Posted: Sun Oct 09, 2005 12:22 pm Post subject: |
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| JZer wrote: |
Clark,
Have you heard of anyone getting deported lately that actually has an ARC? or just people that have been working completly illegally |
It is a good question and one that I have been digging for information about for a long time.
In recent months it does appear that a couple of teachers working totally legally and with valid ARC's have had these cancelled based upon past illegal work. These teachers admit to being caught working illegally but had quite reasonably assumed months down the track that no action was being taken. The fact that they were actually issued work permits after being caught working illegally seemed to confirm that everything was sorted.
I know that some will claim that this is due to bribes being paid etc. etc.To me it seems much more simple. There is not a lot of cohesion and information sharing among government departments here in Taiwan. It is likely that the Foreign Affairs Police never shared the fact that the teacher was caught working illegally with the Council of Labor Affairs and hence a work permit was issued.
This should be quite unsettling for anyone who has been caught working illegally in the past and is a good reason to ensure that you are working legally. |
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JZer
Joined: 16 Jan 2005
Posts: 3898
Location: Pittsburgh
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| Posted: Sun Oct 09, 2005 2:04 pm Post subject: |
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Clark,
If you have a ARC sponser and then find another job, how do you get the second employer included on your ARC so that you are in compliance with the law? I am sure that you know by now that I am interested in finding two jobs, so I just want to make sure I do things legally. I am trying to save so that I can purchase a language school/ hotel in Central America. I am coming to Asia for a while to get experience in the ESL field but also so that I can save money to purchase a school in the future.
Furthermore, what if you are working while they are processing your ARC. I think that most employers will expect you to work during that period even though it is illegal? |
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clark.w.griswald
Joined: 06 Dec 2004
Posts: 2056
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| Posted: Sun Oct 09, 2005 2:17 pm Post subject: |
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| JZer wrote: |
| If you have a ARC sponser and then find another job, how do you get the second employer included on your ARC so that you are in compliance with the law? |
If you have an ARC with one school and want to add a second to your ARC then you need to go through the whole process again with that new school. The only difference being that at the end of the process you get the second employers name added to the back of your current ARC rather than getting a second ARC card.
So the second employer will need to apply for a work permit for you. Once you have the work permit you can take this to the FAP and have the ammendments made to your current ARC. It should take less than two weeks all up in most cases.
| JZer wrote: |
| Furthermore, what if you are working while they are processing your ARC. I think that most employers will expect you to work during that period even though it is illegal? |
It is acceptable to start work while your work permit, resident visa, and ARC are being processed. This is actually written in the guidelines and I can speak from personal experience that in a case where the authorities catch you working in the interim that they will confirm your details and check up on you later. |
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ramakentesh
Joined: 05 Mar 2005
Posts: 145
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| Posted: Sun Oct 09, 2005 4:09 pm Post subject: |
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| Zher - I know of recent situation involving a school chain beginning with W that revoked the ARC for two employees that questioned them for not lodging their tax on their behalf - and pocketing the money. |
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JZer
Joined: 16 Jan 2005
Posts: 3898
Location: Pittsburgh
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| Posted: Sun Oct 09, 2005 8:26 pm Post subject: |
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Clark,
Thanks for the info. I am just trying to make sure I know all the rules. Only another 4 months and I will be in Taiwan. I don't know if I can take the suspense. |
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teacha
Joined: 25 Aug 2005
Posts: 186
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| Posted: Mon Oct 10, 2005 4:18 am Post subject: |
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| JZer wrote: |
Clark,
Thanks for the info. I am just trying to make sure I know all the rules. Only another 4 months and I will be in Taiwan. I don't know if I can take the suspense. |
You may not want to get off the plane. Things change once you see what you're in for. Good luck and read these.
"Hello everyone -
A good place to begin your research is to read the entries on the Dave's ESL Cafe's Job Information Journal Taiwan section:
http://www.eslcafe.com/jobinfo/asia/sefer.cgi?Taiwan
Hope this helps! Smile
All the best,
Dave Sperling
Founder"
* * * * * * * * * * * *
Last edited by teacha on Mon Oct 10, 2005 7:56 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Mr. Kalgukshi
Mod Team
Joined: 18 Jan 2003
Posts: 6613
Location: Need to know basis only.
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| Posted: Mon Oct 10, 2005 10:00 am Post subject: Information |
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This thread has just had a posting deleted after being moved to the Mod Forum for review. The deleted posting was personally insulting, confrontational and offensive.
Any repeats of same will result in the offending member(s) being sanctioned as appropriate. |
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