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kenkannif
Joined: 07 Apr 2004
Posts: 550
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 Posted: Tue Sep 27, 2005 10:09 am Post subject: |
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^ Thanks!
And my bleeped word shouldn't really have been bleeped as I said c.ocky...and that's not a bad word at all (just in case anyone thought I was being foul mouthed). |
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No Moss
Joined: 15 Apr 2003
Posts: 1995
Location: Thailand
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| Posted: Thu Sep 29, 2005 3:50 am Post subject: |
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Well, I did check out the Ministry of Foreign Affairs, and found information which contradicts the web site of the Thai Embassy in Washington, DC. It is surely a mark of my inexperience in Thailand that I am surprised by that.
What I did glean from my e-mail from the Thai Consulate in Hong Kong is that the O-A visa is the one that allows to reside in Thailand without family connections, based on your foreign-based income and/or savings. You are not allowed to work on that visa.
The other "O" visas apparently require a family connection, so they wouldn't be applicable to me, unless there's some kid I don't know about. 
I keep trying to call the Thai Consulate in Guangzhou, but I keep getting a "no such number" thing (the number I used is 020-8188-6986).
Anyway, I'll try at that office when I'm able to get through. There's got to be a way without goin' back to the old USA. |
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kenkannif
Joined: 07 Apr 2004
Posts: 550
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| Posted: Thu Sep 29, 2005 6:02 am Post subject: |
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| No Moss wrote: |
| What I did glean from my e-mail from the Thai Consulate in Hong Kong is that the O-A visa is the one that allows to reside in Thailand without family connections, based on your foreign-based income and/or savings. You are not allowed to work on that visa. |
As it's a retirement Visa. Although actually if you got an O/A on the strength of marriage yes you could work on it.
Basically an O/A is pretty much the same as an O, BUT you get as full YEAR from the get go (with a Non-imm O you get 90 days on entry and have to extend it this end with money, marriage or retirement etc.).
And I'll put money on the fact you have to get a Non-imm O/A from the States (if you're American). Whereas with an O you can (or should be able to) get it from anywhere.
| Quote: |
| The other "O" visas apparently require a family connection, so they wouldn't be applicable to me, unless there's some kid I don't know about. |
No both can be used without any Thai dependants, both can also be used with dependants. |
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Volodiya
Joined: 03 May 2004
Posts: 1025
Location: Somewhere, out there
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| Posted: Thu Sep 29, 2005 11:43 pm Post subject: |
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No Moss wrote:
| Quote: |
| What I did glean from my e-mail from the Thai Consulate in Hong Kong is that the O-A visa is the one that allows to reside in Thailand without family connections, based on your foreign-based income and/or savings. You are not allowed to work on that visa. |
That certainly is a lot of the appeal of it, and one of the reasons I said earlier, that Thailand is as welcoming of retirees as any place I've seen.
There is one "visa" status which is superior, in some respects. I'm speaking of the status of "permanent resident". This status is available to one who brings in $250,000. One who qualifies in this way, is not subject to the immigration quotas others are subject to. This would be useful to someone who was concerned about guaranteeing their long-term status in the country, as it is not subject to annual renewal, where the O-A visa is. (For those who would be concerned about Thai taxes a permanent resident would be subject to, they are not particularly high, and Thailand has tax treaties with most countries of interest to the readers, here.) |
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kenkannif
Joined: 07 Apr 2004
Posts: 550
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| Posted: Fri Sep 30, 2005 8:11 am Post subject: |
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| Volodiya wrote: |
No Moss wrote:
| Quote: |
| What I did glean from my e-mail from the Thai Consulate in Hong Kong is that the O-A visa is the one that allows to reside in Thailand without family connections, based on your foreign-based income and/or savings. You are not allowed to work on that visa. |
That certainly is a lot of the appeal of it, and one of the reasons I said earlier, that Thailand is as welcoming of retirees as any place I've seen. |
I think to get the Non-imm O/A though you need to show the 800K (or monthly or combination) FIRST, rather than when you arrive (like a Non-imm O).
| Quote: |
| There is one "visa" status which is superior, in some respects. I'm speaking of the status of "permanent resident". This status is available to one who brings in $250,000. One who qualifies in this way, is not subject to the immigration quotas others are subject to. This would be useful to someone who was concerned about guaranteeing their long-term status in the country, as it is not subject to annual renewal, where the O-A visa is. (For those who would be concerned about Thai taxes a permanent resident would be subject to, they are not particularly high, and Thailand has tax treaties with most countries of interest to the readers, here.) |
I thought to get a residents permit (or are you on about something else. If so do you have a link?) you had to be on the same extended Visa for at least three years? Plus be able to speak a bit of Thai etc.???
Also I've heard that things have changed recently and now to apply for citizenship you don't need to have been on a residents permit for 5-10 years (depending on who you listen to), but rather a 10 year stretch on the same extended Visa is enough. |
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tedkarma
Joined: 17 May 2004
Posts: 1598
Location: The World is my Oyster
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| Posted: Fri Sep 30, 2005 9:02 am Post subject: |
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Kennie,
How do you "show" the 800k first (for the O/A)? Just provide proof of it in your account in your home country - or that you have already set it up in Thailand?
Just curious - still a lonnnnggggg ways from retiring. |
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Volodiya
Joined: 03 May 2004
Posts: 1025
Location: Somewhere, out there
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| Posted: Fri Sep 30, 2005 11:43 am Post subject: |
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Kenkannif wrote:
| Quote: |
| I thought to get a residents permit (or are you on about something else. If so do you have a link? you had to be on the same extended Visa for at least three years? |
That's true of "quota" based immigration. Those who bring at least 10 million Baht equivalent in foreign currency into the country can receive permanent residence on a "non-quota" basis.
See-
http://www.thaiembdc.org/consular/con_info/restpmit/rest_pm.html#Investment
(What you'll notice is that permanent residence, based on quotas and nationality, is spelled out in paragraph "1", while non-quota permanent residency, based on investment, is spelled out in paragraph "2".) |
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kenkannif
Joined: 07 Apr 2004
Posts: 550
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| Posted: Sun Oct 02, 2005 4:17 am Post subject: |
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^ Thanks, I didn't know about that (then again I don't know many people with that kind of money) 
| tedkarma wrote: |
Kennie,
How do you "show" the 800k first (for the O/A)? Just provide proof of it in your account in your home country - or that you have already set it up in Thailand?
Just curious - still a lonnnnggggg ways from retiring. |
Err good question as they generally like it here, but then you wouldn't be here....okay let me check. |
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isabel
Joined: 07 Mar 2003
Posts: 510
Location: God's green earth
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| Posted: Mon Oct 17, 2005 12:19 am Post subject: |
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I just stumbled across this thread. It's of interest to me, as I am now working in Korea and giving serious consideration to living in Thailand.
What is involved in owning property in Thailand? I have heard conflicting stories. |
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Volodiya
Joined: 03 May 2004
Posts: 1025
Location: Somewhere, out there
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| Posted: Mon Oct 17, 2005 3:34 am Post subject: |
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And you thought the visa questions were involved?
Land ownership by foreigners is through proxies, of some sort (a Thai business, or partner). [I'm not even going to try to go into the details of the complexity of indirect ownership of land through Thai limited liability corporations with de facto majority foreign ownership except to say that it's often done; it's never been tested through the Thai courts, and it involves enough subterfuge to sink any legal transaction if it were practiced in the U.S. in the same way. (Lots of condo projects which are developed by foreigners for the farang market in Ko Phuket use this approach.)]
A bona fide condo project, with majority Thai ownership, normally has the right to sell 49% of it's living space to foreigners without creating any special legal issues. If the project itself holds the land in fee simple (Thai, chanote title) the condo can then be owned by a foreigner much as in the west- sold to another or passed on by will, at death.
If you want to buy a house, the tried and true method is to get a 30 year lease on the property from the Thai owner (individual, or legal entity), renewable for another 30 years at the expiration of the first lease term.
Rent, and avoid all these questions! And, in Thailand, renting is often a very economical option. I know one fellow who rents a nice three bedroom, two story house in Surat Thani for just over 100 USD/month. Lots of places seem to have more living space on offer than there is market to absorb it, keeping prices down. Buying may just not be what it's cracked up to be, in Thailand. |
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kenkannif
Joined: 07 Apr 2004
Posts: 550
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| Posted: Mon Oct 17, 2005 4:43 am Post subject: |
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PM me and I'll link you to a good thread about buying property here.
I don't think I can put it here can I?
| Pinky wrote: |
Go away for a week and come back to a thread that's interesting but full of so much misinformation!
1. Land ownership
1.1 - A farang can own land in Thailand - up to 1 Rai - provided that:
(a) s/he is willing to invest B40m for a period of 5 years in government sanctioned investments;
(b) the farang uses the residence for himself or his family;
(c) the farang takes possession of the property within 6 months of receiving approval;
(da) the Baht 40m is exclusive of the price of the property and/or any investment made to upgrade the property.
1.2 - A farang can own land - up to 1 Rai - provided that:
(a) it is for residential purposes
(b) it is inherited
1.3 - A farang company can own land - of various sizes - provided that:
(a) the company is given an investment privilege - e.g. BoI;
(b) the company is in an industrial estate - e.g. IEAT - Eastern Seaboard;
(c) the company is permitted to under special legislation - e.g. the Petroleum Act
1.4 - Thai company route
Using what is known as the Thai owned/foreign controlled company route a foreigner can [equitably] own a company. Effectively you do a preference share structure whereby 1 farang share is worth 100 Thai share. Under the scheme the Thais own the majority of shares, but are minority holders - this is because the farang own 49% of "preference" shares to 51% of Thai shares.
PROBLEMS:
Problems with this structure are:
(a) in order not to fall foul of the "nominee" rule under the Land Code and Section 150 of the Civil and Commercial Code the company must be a trading company;
(b) the company, like all companies, will be subject to corporate income tax on profits;
(c) the concept of 'transfer pricing" comes into play under Regulation No. Paw 113/2545, dated 16 May 2003. Basically, as a director of the company, and the renter of the house, if you set a rent below or above "market rate" the Revenue Department will claim that you (through the company) are trying to avoid tax and will nullify (or, more likely, reajust to "market rate") your lease contract;
(d) capitalization of the company cannot be less than the value of the land and house - otherwise the authorities will set aside the company structure on the grounds that it cannot sustain its business. Please note, this does not mean the business needs to make a profit. This means the company MUST have enough start up capital to buy its assets, i.e. the house plus land AND continue its business through the initial start up period.
SOLUTIONS
Solutions to the above problems include:
(1) when establishing the company you (as a shareholder) provide your other shareholders (minimum 6, all of whom [practically] should be Thai) with a loan for their contribution as promoters of the business (i.e. to buy the shares);
(2) under the CCC a pledge is required to be held in the hands of the pledgee (you); thus, you take security over the loan above in the form a the share certificates in the company;
(3) under the loan you have [at minimum] 2 events of default : (i) the loan cannot be repaid before the term of loan expires; (ii) death of the borrower;
(4) set the loan period for 30 years - or whatever the term of lease is between the company and you.
ADDITIONAL PROBLEMS
(a) under Thai law a pledge is extinguished when the debt is repaid;
(b) death of a shareholder - inherited by the estate (over whom you have no control)
ADDITIONAL SOLUTIONS
both are events of default under the loan - so, if the shareholder tries to repay early, to quash the pledge, you call an event of default and enforce the security; and, as soon as you hear of the death of a shareholder you call an event of default and enforce the security (harsh, but there you go!)
LAST PROBLEM
Under Thai law enforcement of security needs to be done (in this case) by means of public auction. However, no advertisement of such public auction needs to be made. Hire a barn, invite 7 people to it, lend 1 the money to buy the shares - same terms - and let the bidding begin.
2 Inflation
There are 2 official inflation rates in Thailand. 1 is declared by the Bank of Thailand and [mean] is currently around 5.2 y-o-y. The other is set by the Ministry of Finance and is currently around 7.6 y-o-y
Why the difference? Because they have different "basket" measurements - which is the fundamental flaw with inflation
Either way, with 6-month fixed term deposits at less than 2%, cash deposits are a waste of fucking time - might as well invest in the stock market or go to Cambodia and play some blackjack!
3 Investing in Thailand
Circa. 2001 the Board of Investment did a survey of foreign investments in Thailand with Thai joint venture partners (and I do not mean wives). Result - ~80% of foreign investments in Thailand last less than 5 years.
You decide |
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Volodiya
Joined: 03 May 2004
Posts: 1025
Location: Somewhere, out there
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| Posted: Mon Oct 17, 2005 6:29 am Post subject: |
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Ken, I saw that piece, too, some time ago, and thought it contained a lot of interesting details on the subject. Some of it looks like quotes from Thai Law (I base that judgment on the belief that Pinky writes better than the drafters of Thai legislation!).
The law quoted makes just two exceptions to the general rule that a farang cannot own land, in his own name and right, in Thailand; that is, 1) when he/she is approved as an investor, invested in sanctioned investments (sum spoken of in Ss 1.1 is equivalent to one million U.S.D., exclusive of the cost of the land and improvements the foreigner wishes to purchase, after he/she qualifies as an investor); OR, 2) when he/she has inherited the land from a Thai.
In either case, the land purchased (Ss 1.1), or inherited (Ss 1.2), cannot exceed one rai in size, and must be put to a residential use.
________________________
As to my earlier, somewhat negative assessment of using Thai Limited Liability structures to accomplish land ownership, I'd be surprised if I don't take some heat for it, because a lot of developers (and subsequent purchasers) are betting large sums that this approach will receive the support of the legal system, if challenged. As a personal matter, I wouldn't buy under one of these structures because the risk is an unnecessary one for me to take and I don't usually take unnecessary risks. Pinky outlines some of the sticky points in his material, but doesn't fully address the elements of subterfuge that seem to me to be its biggest weakness, and the place at which it is most vulnerable to challenge, later.
Last edited by Volodiya on Mon Oct 17, 2005 6:49 am; edited 1 time in total |
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kenkannif
Joined: 07 Apr 2004
Posts: 550
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| Posted: Mon Oct 17, 2005 6:47 am Post subject: |
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He's a very clever bloke is young Pinky.
Still if I bought anything here (in my wife's name) I'd personally not expect to see it again. So don't spend what you can't afford to say good bye to IMO! |
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Volodiya
Joined: 03 May 2004
Posts: 1025
Location: Somewhere, out there
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| Posted: Tue Oct 18, 2005 9:15 am Post subject: |
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Ken, when people say "don't invest if you can't afford to lose it", they usually mean the investment is unreasonably risky, in their opinion. Lots of men have bought land in Thailand, using their wife as proxy. Some have lost, and some not (that's how it goes with wives, eh?).
At this stage of my life, I'm not taking chances with women, or investments. |
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kenkannif
Joined: 07 Apr 2004
Posts: 550
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| Posted: Tue Oct 18, 2005 9:23 am Post subject: |
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^ You know that.
Why spend a few million on a house in Bangers when I can get a just as nice one for tons cheaper elsewhere....and if the wife decides I'm not as brilliant as I like to think I am...I've not lost so much. |
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