Job Discussion Forums

wangtesol · Joined: 24 May 2005 Posts: 280

Wow, first Paul H is silenced by ESL Cafe, and now the thread about that is also silenced.

I think in the W5 thread we were getting to how can Dave's ESL Cafe claim to be a leader in EFL law, and yet silence labor law educators.

So, I will ask, generally, how can Sperling write in The EFL-Law.com Book that

JimDunlop2 · Joined: 31 Jan 2003 Posts: 2286 Location: Japan

Ok, let's set some things straight. I locked the W5 thread. I didn't delete it. If I wanted to "silence" discussion on this, the thread wouldn't be there anymore. And for that matter, neither would this one.

Then, you are trying to combine two very different issues. You can very easily be an authority on labour law and labour law issues without pointing fingers at specific schools or companies. You do not need to be an activist in order to be an expert, though I can see how someone might confuse the two.

On the contrary, if your goal is educating people, it's probably best not to involve blacklists, as that might indicate to people that you have ulterior motives. In fact, the "Survival Manual: A Guide to Foreigners' Rights in Japan" compiled by the Solidarity Network with Migrants Japan (ISBN4-88319-330-6) is a great reference, and nowhere does it need to mention examples of lawbreakers. Learn what the law is, and what your rights are, apply it to your workplace and contract and ask yourself whether there are discrepencies.

Before I moved to Japan, (and after I did) I ran some questions by the folks on Dave's, asking questions like: "Does this contract look OK to you guys?" But I also took care to remove the name of the school from the document, for a number of reasons, the least of which was, I didn't want pre-existing bias to interfere with the responses.

Finally, I will say this only once more: What happened between Dave and PaulH is between them. If Paul himself chooses to talk about it, that's completely up to him -- but I discourage anyone from speculating without knowing the full story from both sides. for what it's worth, I don't know it either -- it hasn't been revealed to me, so I will not presume to judge either way. As a clarifying point, Paul was in no way silenced, he is still an active user on this forum and has the right to speak out on issues he sees fit. Dave has however made it clear that the moderators are to stay away from partisan discussions regarding schools or companies. If a mod makes claims that XYZ School has a bad reputation, that makes Dave's editorially responsible for those claims.

aclarke: the ad rates and contact info for Dave are (and always have been) available from the main ESLCafe page. If the union wishes to go that route, the option is likely there.

wangtesol · Joined: 24 May 2005 Posts: 280

Okay, thanks for keeping this thread open, Jim. I hope this helps people to better understand how ESL Cafe works.

But you write that

JimDunlop2 · Joined: 31 Jan 2003 Posts: 2286 Location: Japan

PAULH · Joined: 28 Jan 2003 Posts: 4672 Location: Western Japan

Just for the record,

this talk of developing a website has been broached before and Bearcat has in fact set one up to deal with the Smith school issue. that issue got bounced off three web forums due to outside pressure from clients and schools alike.

The only way you can keep the thing on the Web is to build a firewall between the owner of the website and the content. This was done by making the owner of the website anonymous, so even the server can not be threatened or bullied by people wanting to make a complaint. Im sure he will provide the details.

Setting up a website to criticise schools is a noble idea, but there are a couple of practical considerations.

people come here to find out about language schools and though its all very well having a link to a website the blacklist still has to be maintained and updated. People who start up a website will have to buy space on a server that can not be intimidated, threatened or bullied, preferably not in japan. ELTnews was threatened over such posts on theor forum a year or two ago.

websites thrive on trafffic and you need some way to keep people coming back, and at the top of search engines. im not an expert on this, but Im not sure people will specifically go to a website to read the dirt on some language school, and it should be a part of a much larger site, rather than shunted off into the background like an embarrassment. From personal experience updating and maintaining websites, even moderating takes up a lot of time and i wonder how many people would devote time to it, longer after it has lost its initial appeal and novelty.

Its almost like Daves is a big house and the blacklist is kept out in the outhouse where no one can see it. No one actually goes out there unless they have to and would rather it was in the living room where all the action is. Becuase the list was on the stickie, in a visible place with lots of traffic thats why it attracted the wrong kind of attention. Out on another site, if you blink you might actually miss it, but you still need people to update and maintain the website and provide traffic. All you get then is maybe half a dozen people who will frequent the site. You still then get the issue of links to the site being deleted as its guilt by association. people will still complain if dave has a link to a blacklist on another website. Can't win for losing.

How many people will do the actual dirty work of collecting information? A Blacklist should not be a web version of National Enquirer looking for muckraking salacious dirt on an employer. the Blacklist on here tried hard where possible to provide supporting data on employers based on direct anecdotes, posts pulled from other forums about that employer, information based on written contracts. I was sent copies of contracts that had more holes than a fishing net.

I have been sent information that the owner of one school had ties to organised crime. I believe it is up to language schools that advertise on here and are offended by what is written about them to prove and show that they are abiding by Japanese labor laws, rather than for a blacklist to show they are not defaming people, which I think is the case here.If they were law abiding and honest in the first place none of this would be necessary.

Most school owners will not actually come on the forum publically and defend themselves but will hide behind lawyers and pseudonyms. Mark Smith used about 3 or 4 different pseudonyms on the thread on gaijinpot but would never actually use his real name or defend his company practices in public.

Some schools would have a hard time showing that they were completely innocent but find it much easier to shake down the messenger or go after the site owner when they read something they find to be disagreeable but not untruthful. This is where the essence of this problem lies.

I am not angry at Dave for canning me at all, merely disappointed and it doesnt really bother me if Im a Moderator or not- Im not in it for the ego and I have plenty else going on in my life to keep me occupied offline. He will do what he wants to or has to do. If he wants the use of my services I am here, but i refuse to be part of any white-washing or coverup and I will just let things take their course.

wangtesol · Joined: 24 May 2005 Posts: 280

Okay. Thanks for answering those questions, Jim.

Paul has just made it clear he was dismissed by ESL Cafe; he did not step down.

Stosskraft · Joined: 12 Apr 2004 Posts: 252 Location: Japan

Big John Stud · Joined: 07 Oct 2004 Posts: 513

Davesesl is still a lot better than guijinpot. You have a lot more chances of getting warned here than on guijinpot. A few other employees and me posted a thread on guijin pot warning people to call the labour board to find out about a very corrupt company, we all got band!
If you are going to discourage a school from advertising on a website, discourage them from using guijinpot!

JimDunlop2 · Joined: 31 Jan 2003 Posts: 2286 Location: Japan

lajzar · Joined: 09 Feb 2003 Posts: 647 Location: Saitama-ken, Japan

I do get the distinct impression that there is little point in trying to post any warning information on this site, when it is now established site policy to delete such warnings, even when they are apparently carefully vetted for honesty.

hip-hop boy78 · Joined: 02 Dec 2004 Posts: 90 Location: Hip-hop land

It is starting to look like Dave's ESLcafe is no longer a place in which to find honest, open and reliable information about certain language schools. Any hint of a thread harming the interests of a school that advertises on this site is soon yanked or closed. And what was Sperling thinking when he decided to drop the legend that is PaulH??? Shocked

Anyway, I remember checking out this site for the first time over five years ago now and I was suitably impressed with what I found. Unfortunately I can no longer say the same... Crying or Very sad

yamanote senbei · Joined: 28 Jun 2005 Posts: 435

Even with this incident, I'll admit this forum allows a lot more freedom of expression that any of the alternatives. Gaijinpot has an obligation to kill any threads that their paid advertisers find objectionable. Most of the ads on Gaijinpot are from shady employers that are breaking the law one way or another and most of the posts are from people that have worked for one or more of the above mentioned companies at one time or another. There's a definite problem with conflict of interest there that there isn't here.

Gaijinpot even killed the thread on Dave's demotion of Paul.