Job Discussion Forums

[Richard_Gao]

happy fasting for those who are moslems. for the rest of us, is there any place you can get food in the afternoon? Such as a take out place?

[Mohammad]

Should be Muslims, NOT ''moslems''.

[Richard_Gao]

not to sound completely ignorant, but would you mind telling me the difference of moslem vs. muslim?

[Mohammad]

Moslem means nothing, Muslim (which is the correct transliteration of the Arabic word) means a follower of the religion of Islam.

[Henry_Cowell]

The word "Moslem" was originally an incorrect English transliteration and pronunciation. It is now considered obsolete in formal written English. In all educational, scientific, journalistic and government communications, the current term is "Muslim."

From wikipedia:

Muslim

Until recently the word was also spelled Moslem. Muslims do not recommend this spelling because it is often pronounced "mawzlem," which sounds somewhat similar to an Arabic word for "oppressor" (Za'lem in Arabic). A common mispronunciation of the word Muslim is �muz-lim�. That is, the letter "s" is pronounced as a "z." Instead, the word should be pronounced as it is written, "mus-lim."

[Stephen Jones]

Dear Mohammad

There is no accepted code for transliterating from Arabic script to Latin script.

The fact that you insisit on the 'u' in 'muslem' but use the 'o' in 'Mohammad' shows how chaotic the system is.

I would like to see on what basis Henry Cowell claims that Muslim is now the only term in formal written English.

[Stephen Jones]

boy, the one thing that sucks even more than unsystematic transliteration form Arabic to the Latin alphabet, is trying to login to edit your posts on this forum. Twenty-two attempts in half-an-hour!

I've just done a little checking and 'Muslim' is by far the preferred spelling in English now. This is however a matter of English spelling, and not of "correct transliteration".

Arabic script is phonetic so you would think it would be easy just to choose one Latin letter equivalent for the Arabic letter (particularly as there are only six non-dophtong vowel sounds in Arabic) but no way Jose. The result is that everybody spells words in the Latin alphabet the way they want without rime or reason. If they guy is Saudi, woe betide you if you don't spell his name Al-Ansari, whilst an Egyptian will berate you if you don't spell it el-Ensari. Exactly the same sounds in Arabic.

And professors of Arabic, instead of trying to agree on a standard, can't see anything wrong with the present mess. No doubt it makes them nostalgic for the smells and noises of their favourite souk, where not even the prices are fixed.

[Henry_Cowell]

[Stephen Jones]

As I said, I spent twenty-fove minutes trying to login to edit the post and delete the line you quoted.

We really do have a total mess with transliterations though, since standard English gives us Mohammad (using 'o' for damma and'a' for fatha), Muslim (using 'u' for damma), and Ahmed (using 'e' for fatha).

[veiledsentiments]

The transliteration problem was one that drove me crazy over the years. Of course the problem is that even with all the various permutations and pronunciations of the English vowels, we have managed to NOT have the same vowel sound as the Arabic vowels. Therein lies the problem of deciding between Mohammed and Muhammed - and then there is the final vowel... and then there is the second 'm.' Which explains why you find:

Mohammed
Muhammed
Mohammad
Muhammad
Mohamed
Muhamed
Mohamad
Muhamad

all pronounced exactly the same, of course... and each with its own supporters...

sigh...

VS

[Mohammad]

Stephen Jones,

You work in KSA, you could have saved yourself the trouble and asked someone there how ''مسلم'' is pronounced. I guarantee you, majority if not all would have said that the word is ''Muslim'' (how the word is pronounced in English). If anyone said it as �Moslem�� (how it is pronounced in English), they need to be re educated in Arabic Language.

As for my name, the scholars of the Arabic Language may differ on the correct transliteration; however, Mohammad has all the correct sounds of محمد or م + ح + م+ د. Having said that, Moslem in Arabic would be written as مزلم (م + ز + ل + م ), and Muslim is written with the letters � م + س + ل + م . The Arabic letters �س� (which has a sa sound) and �ز� (which has za sound) is where the difference between Muslim and Moslem lies. I hope this clarifies the issue of Muslim being the correct transliteration.

شكرا جزيلا
محمد ابو صفيان ابن عبد الرحيم ابن علي

[Richard_Gao]

now that the issue about muslim and moslem are clarified, how about helping me get food in the afternoon?

[lionbrian]

Hey Rich,

Looking for food huh? I might be able to help you. Just tell me your location and I get back to you. All right dude!










Yes, life is too short! But then, where will you be heading after that? Think about it!

[Stephen Jones]

Dear Mohammad,

You appear to be completely missing the point. Trying to make the transcripton fit a particular speakers pronounciation is one of the causes of the mess we are in with transliteration of Arabic names. Becausedifferent speakers pronounce the words very differently. This is why Egyptians transliterate one way, Saudis another, and let's not even enter into the changes that Pakistanis make.

There are three short vowels in written Arabic, fatha, kasra and damma. Any sensible transliteration would regularly use the English vowel for the equivalent Arabic vowel. To transliterate damma as 'u' for Muslim and 'o' for Mohammad is totally illogical, yet it is what you are defending. I do agree with you that to transliterate the kasra of Muslim by an 'e' as in moslem is strange to say the least, but we see this happening in 'khaled' instead of 'khalid' and nobody complains.

As for the 's' being (mis)pronounced as 'z', that is irrespective of whether the English word is 'muslim' or 'moslem'.

I was hoping that after 9/11 Homeland Security might realize the problems of having the same people with differently-spelled names on their databases and produce a standard one could adhere to (one of the people involved with the 93 bombings was flagged on US computers but simply spelt the same Arabic name differently in English to get his visa), but to expect logic, awareness or usefulness from the Bush Administration is evidently asking for the moon.

[DesertStar]

Mohammad,
Hijacking and/or derailing a thread is punishable by...moderators.
Sorry to be the bearer of bad news to you