|
Job Discussion Forums
"The Internet's Meeting Place for ESL/EFL Students and Teachers from Around the World!"
|
| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
PAULH
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Posts: 4672
Location: Western Japan
|
 Posted: Wed Oct 05, 2005 6:30 am Post subject: |
 |
|
| Quote: |
and the point of this is...?
1st sentence: OK.
2nd sentence: "they are also not gaijins either". uhhh by which you mean what? Japanese are foreigners when they go to the US or France or....
The 3rd sentence: about the photos... OK and???? |
You were saying that foreigner and gaijin mean the same thing. They are not.
a foreigner is a person who is outside his own country. A gaijin is a non-Japanese person, from the point of view of a japanese person. A Japanese American can be a foreigner in Japan, a gaijin too, as they are not born and raised in Japan as a 100% Japanese national, even though they may look the same in appearance as a Japanese person. They are also called Nikkei-jin or second generation Japanese. A Brazilian Japanese who only speaks Portuguese is not really considered Japanese either and has a foreign passport. They also are called gaijin and foreigner in Japan.
They are foreigners in the eyes of the locals living in that country. To Japanese, any non Japanese person is a gaijin AND a foreigner (in the English sense of the word).
However call a Japanese person a "gaijin" when he is overseas and outside Japan, a word used to refer to non-Japanese people, you will get reactions of outright denial, insult and shock, hostility even. To Japanese, japanese people can not be gaijins, only non-Japanese. It would never occur to Japanese to consider themselves to be gaijins when travellling overseas, or even in Japan.
Calling a Frenchman in France or an American in the US a gaijin is a misnomer, as he is in his own country. He is not a foreigner in his own country. Its the Japanese who are the foreigners and outsiders, and they certainly do not consider themselves to be "gaijins". To my knowledge Jaoanese do not have a word in Japanese for Japanese people outside of Japan, except being "Japanese". I am a foreigner when I go to the US, as Im not an American, but Im not a "gaijin" in the US. |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
fox1
Joined: 22 Feb 2005
Posts: 268
|
| Posted: Thu Oct 06, 2005 4:59 am Post subject: |
|
|
| PAULH wrote: |
| Quote: |
and the point of this is...?
1st sentence: OK.
2nd sentence: "they are also not gaijins either". uhhh by which you mean what? Japanese are foreigners when they go to the US or France or....
The 3rd sentence: about the photos... OK and???? |
You were saying that foreigner and gaijin mean the same thing. They are not.
a foreigner is a person who is outside his own country. A gaijin is a non-Japanese person, from the point of view of a japanese person. A Japanese American can be a foreigner in Japan, a gaijin too, as they are not born and raised in Japan as a 100% Japanese national, even though they may look the same in appearance as a Japanese person. They are also called Nikkei-jin or second generation Japanese. A Brazilian Japanese who only speaks Portuguese is not really considered Japanese either and has a foreign passport. They also are called gaijin and foreigner in Japan.
They are foreigners in the eyes of the locals living in that country. To Japanese, any non Japanese person is a gaijin AND a foreigner (in the English sense of the word).
However call a Japanese person a "gaijin" when he is overseas and outside Japan, a word used to refer to non-Japanese people, you will get reactions of outright denial, insult and shock, hostility even. To Japanese, japanese people can not be gaijins, only non-Japanese. It would never occur to Japanese to consider themselves to be gaijins when travellling overseas, or even in Japan.
Calling a Frenchman in France or an American in the US a gaijin is a misnomer, as he is in his own country. He is not a foreigner in his own country. Its the Japanese who are the foreigners and outsiders, and they certainly do not consider themselves to be "gaijins". To my knowledge Jaoanese do not have a word in Japanese for Japanese people outside of Japan, except being "Japanese". I am a foreigner when I go to the US, as Im not an American, but Im not a "gaijin" in the US. |
fine and I know all that, and I don't have an issue with it. I don't see other cultures as that different.
If you have ever found yourself thinking "I am able to handle/pronounce 'foreign' names quite well" or ANY kind of remotely similar idea... and you happen to be in France or in Japan at the time, it's all the same mindset. We ain't that different from the Japanese mentality
'Gaijin' and 'foreigner' mean the same thing, basically, to me. It depends on what your perspective is.
I know what you're saying, and I don't share your view. In my opinion, I could introduce you to many Americans and on and on and on and on... people who basically have the exact same mindset of which you speak.... in all those examples you give.
When Aussies go to Bali, or Chinese go to Hawaii, when Brits go to Majorca.. do they think of their own names as 'foreign' names, do they think of the food they usually eat (vegemite on toast/sichuan beef/bacon&eggs) as 'foreign' food... do they think of the rugby game they're watching on TV in Bali as a 'foreign' pastime |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
SEndrigo
Joined: 28 Apr 2004
Posts: 437
|
| Posted: Thu Oct 06, 2005 2:42 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| fox1 wrote: |
| fine and I know all that, and I don't have an issue with it. I don't see other cultures as that different. |
YOU might not have an issue, but others do. Imagine being born in Japan, with a Japanese parent, and being called an "outsider" or "gaijin", even though you speak perfect Japanese, go to Japanese schools, and are familiar only with Japanese culture.
If you don't see other cultures as that different in this regard, then you have to open your eyes and stop being a Japan apologist just because you think Osaka is a cool place.
| fox1 wrote: |
| 'Gaijin' and 'foreigner' mean the same thing, basically, to me. It depends on what your perspective is. |
They mean the same to you because you don't have a clue about Japanese culture or the Japanese language. I have already given you a lesson in the difference between foreigner and gaijin and even wrote those words in Kanji.
Unfortunately, many foreigners are also like you, who revel in their ignorance.
We shouldn't waste any more time trying to explain what gaijin means because you're just being a Japan apologist.
| fox1 wrote: |
| When Aussies go to Bali, or Chinese go to Hawaii, when Brits go to Majorca.. do they think of their own names as 'foreign' names, do they think of the food they usually eat (vegemite on toast/sichuan beef/bacon&eggs) as 'foreign' food... do they think of the rugby game they're watching on TV in Bali as a 'foreign' pastime |
Here's where you're wrong. Let me ask you a question. You're Australian, right? Do you visit Japan, or any other country, and then call the people of that country "outsiders", even though it is their country and not yours?
This is what we've been trying to explain to you, but there's no point in explaining if you're going to drone on about how it's all the same and that there is no difference between calling someone an outsider in his own country, and calling someone a foreigner when they are in another country. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
PAULH
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Posts: 4672
Location: Western Japan
|
| Posted: Thu Oct 06, 2005 2:58 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Not only that we were talking about people, and you started going off on tangents about ethnic food and music which have sweet FA to with the price of tea in China about how people see themselves and others.
Obviously if I got to Ghana and am surrounded by black people Im going to think they are exotic because of their dress and food. but I am the "outside" foreigner in that country and they are the locals. Japanese think the black people are the foreigners, not the Japanese.
You have 600,000 Koreans born in Japan and raised as Japanese but are considered gaijin in the land of their birth, although they are identical to Japanese people excpet for the color of their passports.
My daughter and son have Japanese passports too, speak Japanese (fluently) as a first language and still get considered to be "foreign" becuase if their western complexions and light brown hair. There are probably a couple of thousand such kids in international marriages who get called gaijin and half and all other such names, even though they are born here and speak only Japanese. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
fox1
Joined: 22 Feb 2005
Posts: 268
|
| Posted: Fri Oct 07, 2005 6:56 am Post subject: |
|
|
| SEndrigo wrote: |
| fox1 wrote: |
| fine and I know all that, and I don't have an issue with it. I don't see other cultures as that different. |
YOU might not have an issue, but others do. |
uhhh and .....................?
i believe that's what makes the world an interesting place
| Quote: |
Imagine being born in Japan, with a Japanese parent, and being called an "outsider" or "gaijin", even though you speak perfect Japanese, go to Japanese schools, and are familiar only with Japanese culture.
If you don't see other cultures as that different in this regard, then you have to open your eyes and stop being a Japan apologist just because you think Osaka is a cool place. |
uhh I don't agree with that. If you're born in France to Lebanese parents or French and Lebanese parents.... mmmmmm... ?
| Quote: |
| fox1 wrote: |
| 'Gaijin' and 'foreigner' mean the same thing, basically, to me. It depends on what your perspective is. |
They mean the same to you because you don't have a clue about Japanese culture or the Japanese language. I have already given you a lesson in the difference between foreigner and gaijin and even wrote those words in Kanji.
Unfortunately, many foreigners are also like you, who revel in their ignorance.
We shouldn't waste any more time trying to explain what gaijin means because you're just being a Japan apologist.
| fox1 wrote: |
| When Aussies go to Bali, or Chinese go to Hawaii, when Brits go to Majorca.. do they think of their own names as 'foreign' names, do they think of the food they usually eat (vegemite on toast/sichuan beef/bacon&eggs) as 'foreign' food... do they think of the rugby game they're watching on TV in Bali as a 'foreign' pastime |
Here's where you're wrong. Let me ask you a question. You're Australian, right? Do you visit Japan, or any other country, and then call the people of that country "outsiders", even though it is their country and not yours?
This is what we've been trying to explain to you, but there's no point in explaining if you're going to drone on about how it's all the same and that there is no difference between calling someone an outsider in his own country, and calling someone a foreigner when they are in another country. |
Last edited by fox1 on Fri Oct 07, 2005 7:00 am; edited 1 time in total |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
fox1
Joined: 22 Feb 2005
Posts: 268
|
| Posted: Fri Oct 07, 2005 6:57 am Post subject: |
|
|
it does have everything to do with what we're talking about......
"music"? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
6810
Joined: 16 Nov 2003
Posts: 309
|
| Posted: Fri Oct 07, 2005 8:19 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: |
uhh I don't agree with that. If you're born in France to Lebanese parents or French and Lebanese parents.... mmmmmm... ?
|
You will remember that the article in question at the beginning of this thread was about Japan. And being Japanese. And about belonging. And Cultural identity. In Japan...
Intersections between race, civic status, culture and cultural identity are quite unique and context dependent.
Thus "non-French" French citizens and "non-Japanese" Japanese citizens and "non-Australian (ie not white)" Australian citizens all face varying challenges relating to who they are and how they belong in their different contexts. THe forms and means of discrimination differ. But there is one constant - and that is the reality of exclusion from what is considered "wholly" or "truly" French/Japanese/Aussie etc.
Meanwhile...
Seriously, dude, gaijin does not mean the same as gaikokujin. When a Japanese calls you a gaijin or refers to you as a gaijin, he/she knows very well that this word is not only impolite and improper, it is also downright rude. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
abufletcher
Joined: 14 Sep 2005
Posts: 779
Location: Shikoku Japan (for now)
|
| Posted: Fri Oct 07, 2005 11:03 am Post subject: |
|
|
| I feel about "gaijin" the same way I felt about "gringo" while I was living in Mexico. It depends entirely on who says it, when and where they say it, and how they say it. As for there being a difference between "gaijin" and "gaikokujin" well technically, morphologically, yes. But I've always felt that Japanese use "gaikokujin" in those public situations in which they know they're not supposed to say "gaijin" (the way parents tell their children not to speak with their mouths full) but the deep down they know it means the same thing and they don't like you any better just because they're calling your "gaikokujin-sama." |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
fox1
Joined: 22 Feb 2005
Posts: 268
|
| Posted: Sat Oct 08, 2005 10:39 am Post subject: |
|
|
| 6810 wrote: |
| Quote: |
uhh I don't agree with that. If you're born in France to Lebanese parents or French and Lebanese parents.... mmmmmm... ?
|
You will remember that the article in question at the beginning of this thread was about Japan. And being Japanese. And about belonging. And Cultural identity. In Japan...
Intersections between race, civic status, culture and cultural identity are quite unique and context dependent.
Thus "non-French" French citizens and "non-Japanese" Japanese citizens and "non-Australian (ie not white)" Australian citizens all face varying challenges relating to who they are and how they belong in their different contexts. THe forms and means of discrimination differ. But there is one constant - and that is the reality of exclusion from what is considered "wholly" or "truly" French/Japanese/Aussie etc.
Meanwhile...
Seriously, dude, gaijin does not mean the same as gaikokujin. When a Japanese calls you a gaijin or refers to you as a gaijin, he/she knows very well that this word is not only impolite and improper, it is also downright rude. |
yeah... i agree with you.
Also, I just want to say the words "gaijin equals gaikokujin" didn't actually come out of my fingers, or similar.
'Gaijin equals foreigner'...sure< that I believe.
I also think many times the word 'foreigner' is said in many many places, it is not polite and it is improper and THEY know it too |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
|
This page is maintained by the one and only Dave Sperling.
Contact Dave's ESL Cafe
Copyright © 2018 Dave Sperling. All Rights Reserved.
Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2002 phpBB Group
|
FAQ
Search
Memberlist
Usergroups
Register
Profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
