Job Discussion Forums

The Noodles · Joined: 24 Aug 2005 Posts: 202 Location: China, Chengdu

Dear all

I'm at present living and teaching in China. However i'll be leaving in december to spend Christmas back in England.

I've been teaching for 2 years altogether. 1 year as a f/t contract teacher for EF. My second year as a freelance teacher. Both jobs in chengdu Sichuan.

I'm thinking about coming to Japan, but have some very specific requirements b4 i sign to a new school. Yes i want to go back to f/t teachin. Trust me in China Freelance is much better. But it also makes u lazy and i want to move up in the ranks... Not be a teach 4ever, or at least have te option to become a DOS etc.

My requirements are simple.

1) Salary of at least 1500/2000 pounds net
2) mAX 25 HRS teaching and my weekends
3) A western DOS/AC
4) Teacher development schemes (class obs)
5) Professional development schemes (possible chance to move up the ranks, transfer to other city, country etc)
6) It really has to be a global organization, which allows teachers to use there own materials along with the school curriculum.
7)accommodation and health insureance would be kinda nice. Confused

Can any of u well experienced lovely, beautiful gents and gentesses give me a huge helping hand. I'll love you 4 ever and will also drink a beer in you honour.

What scools hould i, can i go for, whch can give me what i want?

stay lucky and keep smiling

PAULH · Joined: 28 Jan 2003 Posts: 4672 Location: Western Japan

abufletcher · Posted: Mon Oct 10, 2005 7:55 am Post subject:

There really isn't any "up the corporate ladder" in ESL/EFL. Sure it's possible to move from one job to a better job but only a very small percentage of EFL teachers world-wide ever end up in "management" -- or would even want to.

For the most part the EFL job continuum world-wide runs from teaching kids in language schools (or freelance) on the lower end side to teaching full-time at the university level. That doesn't necessarily mean teaching at a university is more personally satisfying than language school work but it generally pays better (everywhere in the world), requires fewer (classroom) hours per week, and provides for things like housing and medical, not to mention stability.

And this mirrors a continuum in training and experience with warm English-speaking bodies on the language school end of things and those with graduate degrees (MA, Ph.D.) at the other end. There shouldn't be anything too surprising about this: best, highest paying jobs with the best perks go to those with the best qualifications.

BTW, few Directors of Studies seem to last at these jobs for more than a year or two. They tend to entail tons of work, look good on a CV but not a job any sane person would want for the rest of their life.

It is possible to make a decent living teaching EFL overseas -- and be happy. But you have to make a commitment to the profession. At some point you have to say "I AM an EFL teacher and I'm proud of it." This level of commitment usually coincides with an MA in TESOL or Applied Ling. Certificates are fine but they're something you do for other people not yourself and won't, on their own, get you very far in the professional (vs. business) world of EFL. In fact such certificates are considered a bit of a joke at the university level of EFL. They're just something to get your foot in the door.

I'd have to agree with PaulH that the only thing your 2 years in China will get you here in Japan is a fleeting second look at your resume. But if that's all you have to offer then you'll be little better off than someone fresh out of college from "back home." The best you could hope for here is a job with a company like NOVA or GEOS. And it wouldn't be any different in any of the other major EFL markets in the world, for example, the Middle East.

Finally, I have to say that the thought of spending my life working my up the ladder at a language school sends shivers up my spine! But then some people actually WANT to someday be the manager at McDonalds.

If you can be McHappy with that, fine!

abufletcher · Posted: Mon Oct 10, 2005 8:28 am Post subject:

I forgot to add that the langauge school (aka "business") perspective on EFL can be summed up as follows:

English is a marketable commodity. As a native speaker you are presumed to have a very large supply of it. You will sell it to the highest bidder one hour at a time. Your goal is to maximize the quantity of your "product" that you "move." If improvements in quality also translate into improved "sales volume" then that's fine but it's not a goal in itself. The bottom line is always the bottom line.

The view of professional EFL teachers is quite different. First, it is not your English per se you are marketing but rather your knowledge, skills, abilities, and experience as a teacher. It is your teaching skills that have value. Your career goals are to continually increase your knowledge and awareness of what language is and how it can be learned and to be a better teacher than you were last year -- even if you still have the same low paying job.

abufletcher · Posted: Mon Oct 10, 2005 8:37 am Post subject: Re: i just want happiness

PAULH · Joined: 28 Jan 2003 Posts: 4672 Location: Western Japan

Just to mirror what Abufletcher says:

Im one of these people one would consider a professional, have a professional commitment to teaching, which includes one and a half graduate degrees in TESOL and Linguistics

I will not say that university teachers are any better teachers than some one at NOVA but a university will pay you more becuase they value your knowledge, experience and qualifications. One reason I got hired at my currnet job is I had written a paper on testing analysis, a rather esoteric subject. I may be getting paid twice as much for doing the same kind of job as a conversation school teacher, with less hours and less stress, but because I have taken the time trouble and expense to acquire extra qualifications and training, employers will recognise that and recompense me accordingly. Far too many people in EFL want the perks, high pay, good working hours, but they havent done the grunt work, put in the hours and shown what they can actually do. You are coming into a market where there are two American universities churning out Masters degrees every year, thousands of people with degrees, experience and qualifications. Some coming off the boat from a conversation school in China where they employ almost anyone who can rub two words together in an American accent, is going to have some competition from the locals.

Pay your dues, get qualifications and experience, network like crazy and work yourself in to a good job. You may be interested to know the turnover at NOVA is 90% and they are replacing all 4000 teachers every two years. Foreign managers quit from burnout stress and low pay and too much overtime- they get sh-it from below as well as from above. Once you actually develop some proper teaching skills, get properly trained (and not just a 3 day workshop with a trainer at GEOS) you might actually work yourself into a professional type job with all the perks that go with it. until that happens you will just have to go to the back of the line.

PAULH · Joined: 28 Jan 2003 Posts: 4672 Location: Western Japan

The Noodles · Joined: 24 Aug 2005 Posts: 202 Location: China, Chengdu

well thanks for the handy hints.

First of Paulh i have a BA in Marketing and mass communications, and a Celta.Maybe not as flash as your qualifications, but it's a start. EF is by no means the best school in the world, but it's where a lot of people start. I was earning 6000 a month 4 a 40hr week. There in lay the problem. I later found out that my friends (freelancers) were earning up to 14000 a month 4 about 25hrs a week. Hence the reason i didn't sign ANY contracts after mine was up.

So what's the problem u may ask, 1000 pounds a month, for as u all say easy work('in china... sure a baby with a sh'@y a#* couls do it"). I want to develop, i wanna do the DELTA (as i understand it is the equivalent to MA in Linguistics) but u need to 2 years f/t experience to do this.

I've taught as a freelancer for organizations such as Alcatel and Kodak as well many training centers. Please remember that as a freelancer, all u have is a book. No materials, nothing so it's been up to me to invent games, roleplays, discussions for a whole range of levels of all ages.

I'd like to think that all that hard work might count 4 something. Well obviously not. I'm not getting any younger just hit 26. I can't do this job 4ever as much as i'd like to coz 4rm what i understand in the world of teachers, we're the lowest of the low the scum. i wanna work and save money so i can buy a house take care of my parents and maybe god willing some day start a family. You can't do that all by being a teacher 4ever. To be Honest, what i'd really like to get into is activity developments within EFL teaching, ie game , role plays u know what i talked about before.

This is the only job i've ever taken seriously coz b4 this i never stuck at 1 longer than a month, tell a lie 3months was the longest. I don't wanna be 1 of the EFL losers u c sat at a bar in their mid 30z chating up sum poor unfortunate, usually drunk and unable to go back to their own country coz they're affraid of the rat race and the real world kicking them in th A*@... u know the sort i mean? they're a dime a dozen out here, dn't know about there.

Jesus what a rant... dn't even know if i'm talking about the same subject anymore.

Cheers

PAULH · Joined: 28 Jan 2003 Posts: 4672 Location: Western Japan

Noodles,

just so you know, Im 42, married with kids and have been in the TEFL game since 1987. This is not to brag, but to show you that it is possible to make a career in TESOL and I know many people who do, even teaching in such places as Hong Kong, Hawaii and san Fransisco. (these are PhD qualified people mind you)

I came here with a BA at 24 and started out just like you. I wasnt piss-ing on your qualifications but you seemed to have this exaggerated Idea of your worth at your age and after a couple of years teaching in China. Im just taking the rose-tinted spectacles off. It also took me a long time and lots of late nights to get my degrees too, and Im still studying at the age of 42.

China is not Japan, and therein lies the difference. have seen dozens of people with BAs teaching at Chinese universities and they flatter themselves that their experience will land them an equivalent job when they are up against people with Masters and PhDs.

the degree by the way is needed simply to get a work visa here, but my comment was simply to indicate that Chinese immigration will look the other way if you dont have a degree and that as long as you are white, come from an english speaking country, the bar for entry is much lower in China as its such a huge country and there is an insatiable demand for english and native speakers, degreeless or not.

PAULH · Joined: 28 Jan 2003 Posts: 4672 Location: Western Japan

guest of Japan · Joined: 28 Feb 2003 Posts: 1601 Location: Japan

To the OP,

Though I agree with everything said above I will try to state things in friendlier term.

What you are asking for will simply not happen. Teachers are expected to work much longer hours in Japan. Your salary level may have happened 10 or 15 years ago, but after 14 years of an economic slump an a hug influx of native English speaking people who claim to be teachers, the salaries are down and going lower.

Your qualifications and experience don't have a lot of value here. For one it all happened outside of Japan. (you'll here that a lot in an interview). Also, they simply don't add up to much even if your experience was in Japan.

If you come to Japan and work your tale off you may make the money you talk of after you are settled in and invested quite a lot of your own money, but the hours involved, and the commuting will not equal happiness. If you want to have limited teaching hours and a high quality of life, stay in China. If you want to have a low quality of life in exchange for the chance to save a bit more money then Japan may suit you, but not immediately on arrival. Competition here is far more fierce than China. If money is the most important thing then Korea seems to have an edge right now, though I hear Korea is a pretty bleak place to live for most people.

I'm more qualified and experienced than you and I work 6 days a week to make the money you want to get for 25 hours. What you want in all probablility will not happen in Japan.

Glenski · Joined: 15 Jan 2003 Posts: 12844 Location: Hokkaido, JAPAN

The Noodles,
Since Paul brought up my name, I thought it only fair to add my 2 cents to this discussion.

I think you are finding it pretty clear that you are asking for far too much. I hope you are willing to compromise, otherwise you will be quite unhappy here (for the short time you will probably stay, unless you change your mind about things).

1) Salary of at least 1500/2000 pounds net
Your qualifications merit the standard conversation school (eikaiwa) job, which pays 250,000 to 280,000 yen/month tops in most cases [and as Paul wrote, this is actually going down], or a JET ALT job, which pays 300,000 yen/month [and if you're lucky, you might actually get rent free], or some sort of dispatch job [the merits of which are pretty few, and I suggest you do a search on this web site to see how badly they treat employees these days].

How much you save from those salaries depends on many factors (rent and location and lifestyle being the top 3). If you are frugal with an eikaiwa job in a decent location, you could net US$1000 per month. At today's exchange rate, that's about 568 British pounds. So, you can see that you have a long way to go to meet this demand.

You'll need to bring in another 200,000 yen/month to meet the mark you desire, and even if you supplement that with private lessons, you'll have to work 6 or 7 days a week to bring in what many people report of 500,000 to 700,000 yen/month. So, it's possible, but don't count on it too easily. That amount of work won't fall into your hands, certainly not within a short period of time.

You won't be able to land a high school job until you have worked here a year. Sad but true, they take people only with experience, even from eikaiwa experience. Those jobs pay a bit higher, depending, but still far from your mark. More like 300,000 to 400,000 yen/month. Of course, that sort of job pretty much obviates your next item, as does JET, because you are expected to be in the school all day, from roughly 8:30 to 5:00 or even later.

2) mAX 25 HRS teaching and my weekends
Despite what Paul wrote about 40-hour weeks, you can expect many eikaiwa jobs to have you teaching (ie, in the classroom) for 25-30 hours per week. It will vary with the employer as to how many other hours you will work, prepare lessons, interview students, sit in the lobby to attract or chat up potential students, etc. Initially, weekends may not be 2 consecutive days, let alone Saturday or Sunday.

3) A western DOS/AC
Except for the bigger outfits or those run by foreigners, I don't think there's much chance of this. Odds are against you. And, there are many here who complain about such people, so I don't really know why you would want one.

4) Teacher development schemes (class obs)
Please explain what this is. If it's room for advancement, don't count on it. If it's leniency to develop your own skills or boost your degree or certification, don't count on it. Everything will be on your own time and out of your own pocket, except in rare instances (like GEOS).

5) Professional development schemes (possible chance to move up the ranks, transfer to other city, country etc)
See my reply to #4. GEOS actually advertises that you can move to other countries, but I wouldn't expect that until you have worked for them for a year or so. As for other cities, whether with GEOS or another large outfit, you'll just have to go where they have the vacancies.

6) It really has to be a global organization, which allows teachers to use there own materials along with the school curriculum.
Not really sure how you figure this is even likely. A "global organization" to me means one that has international branches, and that means it is probably so ingrained in its own teaching format that it won't permit teachers to bring in their own stuff.

7)accommodation and health insureance would be kinda nice.
Good and bad news. Most eikaiwas (and JET) provide housing with recycled furnishings. They also usually pay the deposits (key money). Health insurance is becoming a big issue here because many employers report the hours a teacher is in the classroom, not the total hours he is in the office, so they can get by with declaring you part-time, even though it is practically full-time hours. As a result, they don't have to pay into your health insurance. On a brighter note, if you stay here only a year, national health insurance is only 2500 yen/month. (Later, it goes up tenfold.)

Gordon · Joined: 28 Jan 2003 Posts: 5309 Location: Japan

I agree with all the advice that has been said. You are asking for too much and you have little to offer.

PAULH · Joined: 28 Jan 2003 Posts: 4672 Location: Western Japan

I did a little spy work, apparently the OP is somewhere in western China, somewhere near Tibet. Its my guess he has a Chinese boss or DOS and wants to work under a westerner. Second, Im not sure if he mentioned this but his friends approximate salary is around 14,000 RMB which is about US$1700 a month, in which they would be living quite well (high on the hog, more like) in a rural part of China. I get the feeling that he feels he would need this amount to enjoy the same kind of lifestyle in japan, but his qualifications and experience dont add up to much here and the salaries he is talking about earning are out of his league. He has an unrealistic idea of what is actually possible in Japan on his qualifications.

6000 RMB is about $750 and a standard wage for teachers in China.

Glenski, 40-hours referred to office hours, not teaching hours. Full time hes in the office 8 hours a day plus one hour break.

abufletcher · Posted: Mon Oct 10, 2005 4:09 pm Post subject:

On the topic of EFL happiness (and away from this particular poster's desire to come to Japan) I think it is wise not to hitch one's horse permenantly to any one country. Economies rise and fall, demographics fluctuate on a time scale usually beyond the lengths of most careers. For the span of my 20+ year career the EFL cash cows have been Japan and the Arabian Gulf with Taiwan and Hong Kong running a close third (at least for university jobs). There is the occasional good job (defined primarily in terms of being able to earn a decent international wage and support a family) in other countries but they are few and far between, usually go to people with special skills or contacts and can largely be ignored in the big picture view of overseas EFL.

At the time I was in the Gulf (1983-1994) there really weren't any "language school" type jobs and the golden ticket was an MA is linguistics/TESOL/or to a lesser extent English. Today that's changed and there are a number of jobs for those with BA's (in a language related field), a teaching certificate, and a couple of years experience. Not good jobs, but jobs.

Asia on the other hand, has always been a fleshpot for English speakers posing as teachers with little or no experience or qualifications - or even desire to stay in the profession. It is a true market economy with a product to fit every budget.

So for now, for long-term professional it's Japan and the Gulf. I've worked both places and may return to the Gulf someday. But I do see interesting things happening in China and I can imagine a future not too far off where some of the best jobs in EFL are in China. It may only be a small fraction of the EFL jobs there and China will probably remain an EFL fleshpot for decades to come (maybe always) -- but I think as China takes a more central role in the world there will also be a call for an elite group of EFL teachers.

So while it may not be necessary to always have one's bags pack, it's a good idea to remember where the suitcase is. It's one thing to be a soujourner in a country -- quite another to have to play by the same economic, cultural, and educational rules as the locals.