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ramakentesh
Joined: 05 Mar 2005
Posts: 145
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 Posted: Sun Oct 09, 2005 4:04 pm Post subject: |
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'back to turkey with you'
Who are you to tell others where and when they can post - man you need to get over yourself... |
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teacha
Joined: 25 Aug 2005
Posts: 186
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| Posted: Sun Oct 09, 2005 7:02 pm Post subject: |
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| ramakentesh wrote: |
'back to turkey with you'
Who are you to tell others where and when they can post - man you need to get over yourself... |
I know !!!! At the risk of agreeing with Clark which I sometimes do....I think naming specific recruiters and shools is really important so I do! |
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ramakentesh
Joined: 05 Mar 2005
Posts: 145
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| Posted: Mon Oct 10, 2005 12:24 pm Post subject: |
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Naming is of little importance - the school is obviously Joy English - who participate not only in these humourous interview techniques but also employ racism as a means to fire workers because of their skin colour - quite sad really. This was ofcourse after the worker had been there for a day and had worked her arse off...
But im sure - since Clark takes their side instantly - as he also does in another post regarding John Dewey (another of the few he rates as a five on his site, so therefore instantly believes over any innocent person who dares to question their ethical standards - even though a recent editorial appeared in the Taipei Times by a former Professor at NTU who openly suggested that a lack of ethics in economic activities in Taiwan was a root cause of social degredation in this country)... |
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clark.w.griswald
Joined: 06 Dec 2004
Posts: 2056
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| Posted: Mon Oct 10, 2005 3:14 pm Post subject: |
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| ramakentesh wrote: |
| Naming is of little importance - the school is obviously Joy English - who participate not only in these humourous interview techniques but also employ racism as a means to fire workers because of their skin colour - quite sad really. |
Well finally it is out in the open so allow me to comment. As I suspected from the start you were referring to this school and therefore it is likely that much of what I have said in this thread has struck a chord with you. This certainly helps to explain why you have chosen not to answer any of my questions, and we both know what the answers would have been anyway.
I think that your posts are rather really sad. Your most recent post seems to suggest that because this school is given a good rating on the buxiban.com site that I am overly defensive about it. The school gets a good rating as the positive comments about the school far outweigh anything negative. Thats pretty simple and I don't see how my judgement can be clouded by the fact that this is one of the few chain schools that has an almost unblemished reputation.
As you would know the far majority of Joy schools are independantly owned franchises, so I would be interested in knowing how you feel your comments about the 'racist' experience at one school is somehow suggestive of racism throughout that whole chain of over 200 schools. If you are not suggesting that it is a company wide problem then shouldn't you really have clarified that your experience related to one school in particular? Surely you would agree that it would be far more helpful to actually point which of these 200 schools your comments relate to rather to try to suggest that all 200 should be branded as racist. Also, assuming that you want to continue to claim that all of this companies schools are racist, I wonder how you can explain the fact that I happen to know a number (probably about five) black teachers that work for Joy, and at least twelve ABC's that work for Joy. These teachers have worked for there in some cases for around five years or more. Obviously it is not Joy that is racist but the staff at one Joy school. But then is that even correct. Maybe your friend was fired for something other than the color of his or her skin, but your posts are often quite thin on actual information, and quite thick on accusations.
| ramakentesh wrote: |
| But im sure - since Clark takes their side instantly - as he also does in another post regarding John Dewey (another of the few he rates as a five on his site, so therefore instantly believes over any innocent person who dares to question their ethical standards |
I don't work for Joy so quite honestly it doesn't bother me terribly what you say about them, so I don't have a problem there. My problem lies with the fact that what you post here is often baseless and just plain wrong, and I believe that I have shown this many times in this thread.
As far as Dewey, where have I taken their side? I have merely suggested that they are company with a good reputation, and the bulk of the information that I have about them is good. I only post about them when people ask for information about good recruiters. Do you have information that suggests that they are not good at what they do and basically honest? If not then I suggest that you stop whining about everything and actually start to offer information here that could actually help people.
| ramakentesh wrote: |
| - even though a recent editorial appeared in the Taipei Times by a former Professor at NTU who openly suggested that a lack of ethics in economic activities in Taiwan was a root cause of social degredation in this country)... |
Oh yes and academics are always right!!! I am sure that I could find an academic who could dispute this point of view so what is the point.
We all know that there are bad business here just as there are anywhere in the world. That's not news, and we certainly don't need a professor to tell us that. |
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Henry_Cowell
Joined: 27 May 2005
Posts: 3352
Location: Berkeley
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| Posted: Mon Oct 10, 2005 5:58 pm Post subject: |
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Clark Griswald writing to "ramakentesh" is like a teacher talking to a whining, poorly behaving, loud-mouthed student. Clark is reasoned, patient, firm, never resorting to ad hominem attack, and always requesting evidence and facts instead of hot air.
And the student only exhibits MORE hot air, anger, insecurity, inferiority and a pessimistic outlook on life. |
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teacha
Joined: 25 Aug 2005
Posts: 186
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| Posted: Mon Oct 10, 2005 11:09 pm Post subject: |
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| Der, er er. You're the voice of reason? I'm so happy to be put in my place. You are a gift. |
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teacha
Joined: 25 Aug 2005
Posts: 186
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| Posted: Mon Oct 10, 2005 11:15 pm Post subject: |
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a recent editorial appeared in the Taipei Times by a former Professor at NTU who openly suggested that a lack of ethics in economic activities in Taiwan was a root cause of social degredation in this country)...[/quote]
The NERVE! With a negative attitude like that, I can see why he was fired and disgruntled. He cannot be dealt with. I'm sre he cannot get a new job nw either, if his tone is 'anything' like that in person. Imagine, ethics of Taiwanese business questioned!? I'm speechless. I hope he had facts to back up his slander. On a side note. It was not obvious to me that Joy was the school you encountered, but they do in fact rank among the worst of the worst. I'm glad a new person can read here that they are so unfair, cause they surely are. Joy wanted like a 70,000 deposit in one branch I was referred to by a recruiter. |
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clark.w.griswald
Joined: 06 Dec 2004
Posts: 2056
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| Posted: Tue Oct 11, 2005 1:58 am Post subject: |
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| teacha wrote: |
| It was not obvious to me that Joy was the school you encountered, but they do in fact rank among the worst of the worst. |
Where is this ranking? Please point us in the direction of any information that you have that suggests that Joy should be avoided.
Really, if you are going to suggest this you should support it with something. The fact is that Joy gets a high mention by most people. I note in particular a foreigner who owns his own school in Taoyuan who commented that the local Joy school although his direct competitor is the only school in his area that he has any respect for. I think that for a competitor to be able to say that about their competition speaks both highly of that person and the competitor that he was referring to.
The fact is that other than the general anti-chain school sentiments that are expressed from time to time, there are almost next to no complaints about Joy of a serious nature. No complaints of salary not being paid. Of being forced to work illegally. Of not getting the required work permits and visas. Of being forced into slavery. There are certainly some differences of opinion between some teachers at some schools just as there are with every company worldwide. You can't keep everyone happy all of the time! There are however no stories of people being ripped off by Joy, even though as I stated earlier many of the schools are independantly owned and run.
Why is this likely? Well I think that it is due to a couple of reasons. One is that Joy is owned and run by an educator herself. A well respected professor of English at a well respected university here in Taiwan. A person who has spent a deal of time overseas and a deal of time in the classroom teaching the very kids that her school offers classes to. They are not perfect, but they seldom make serious nor intentional mistakes.
Having researched many schools in Taiwan I have a great deal of respect for this company. They have been in operation since 1985 and employ around 300 foreign teachers islandwide. It might be fair to suggest that over the years they may have employed close to 5,000 foreign teachers, yet the number of complaints about the school can be counted on one hand.
The complaint from Ramakentesh I believe has been explained quite clearly and is really a personal objection from that person.It is not really a true representation of systemic problems with that school. This is why I picked up on that early on in this thread and continued with it. I was pretty aware of where Ramakentesh was coming from, and I could also see how wrong that person was. I am pleased that she has confirmed that we were in fact talking about the same school as it consolidates and validates a lot of the comments I have been making.
| teacha wrote: |
| I'm glad a new person can read here that they are so unfair, cause they surely are. Joy wanted like a 70,000 deposit in one branch I was referred to by a recruiter. |
As I have stated before each Joy is independantly run and owned, but the parent company does monitor what each school does.
The remark that Teacha makes above could be true, but then it may not be. I can't really say otherwise. Assuming that it is true however, it does not validate blanket statements about the whole company, but rather warrants a particular complaint about that particular school. If Teacha would like to supply me with further information either publically or privately about that particular school I would be happy to investigate it.
As we all know deposits are illegal, but penalties are not. So I would be interested if teacha could clarify whether this was a penalty or an upfront deposit. If it was a penalty then I would say what is wrong with that.I wouldn't agree to such a high penalty myself but at least the school was upfront and honest about the fact that this penalty existed, and any teacher considering a contract with that school would be able to weigh up the pro's and con's of working there. What is wrong with that? Surely a business can choose to operate anyway it wishes (provided that they are operating legally) just as we can choose whether or not we want to work there. |
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teacha
Joined: 25 Aug 2005
Posts: 186
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| Posted: Tue Oct 11, 2005 4:27 am Post subject: |
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| It was upfront. Among teachers Joy has a horrible reputation despite your endorsement. You are not omnicient. I dealt with several Joys. Their contracts were not good. I was warned many times by many people that they are slave factories. I only walked away after I received ridiculous contracts from about 4 different branches. |
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clark.w.griswald
Joined: 06 Dec 2004
Posts: 2056
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| Posted: Tue Oct 11, 2005 6:47 am Post subject: |
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| teacha wrote: |
| Among teachers Joy has a horrible reputation despite your endorsement. |
See that is what I don't understand. I am pretty familiar with the general feedback about schools. Much of what has been said about Joy over the years by past and present teachers can be found on the buxiban website. There are a few negative comments there, but overall the comments are generally positive in nature. There are no complaints of a serious nature.
Among my friends who work for that company, some have their gripes, but again no overall complaints, and some of them have worked for Joy for 14 and 15 years.
So where is this horrible reputation that you refer to, and what are the specific problems that these people are complaining about? I assume that you are referring to the general chain school bashing that goes on,
'Oh, (insert chain school name here), don't work for them. The monies terrible and you have to do preparation!'
Is that the sort of comment that you are referring to?
| teacha wrote: |
| I dealt with several Joys. Their contracts were not good. I was warned many times by many people that they are slave factories. I only walked away after I received ridiculous contracts from about 4 different branches. |
When you say dealt with I assume that you mean interviewed with? Have you ever worked for a Joy school?
What were the specific problems that you refer to with the contract and the conditions? If the situation is as bad as you suggest then it would be good to get the problems out in the open. Also, in recognition of the fact that neither of us is familiar with every single Joy school, lets be a bit specific when making comments about particular schools so as to not unfairly comment about good schools within that network.
My questions are genuine. What do you see are the specific problems with the Joy schools that you visited? |
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ramakentesh
Joined: 05 Mar 2005
Posts: 145
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| Posted: Tue Oct 11, 2005 8:12 am Post subject: |
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Oh yes Henry - I swimming in insecurity and inferiority!  I mean how could I not feel insecure to such well-constructed and articulate replies... Please do not hesitate to provide more profound insights for us all...
The funny thing is that if I am the one swimming in insecurities and inferiority, why am I not the one who feels compelled to write page upon earnest page of clarification, criticism, judgements and 'firm' replies - what ever that is supposed to mean... Just look at the length of the replies here - who is the one who needs the other to feel that their opinion is worthy?
Ofcourse Henry's comments are so poorly constructed that its obvious he just agrees with Clark - If he were to read the thread - and he probably does weekly on a saturday night - he would see that Clark cant stop trying to abonish or judge me - im arrogant, rude, sad, negative, etc, etc - and why would someone feel compelled to do that unless they felt inherantly inferior to the other person?
I didnt know that a person could judge the character of another based purely upon what they write on an anonymous forum - I'm amazed that Henry and Clark feel they can - and Im equally amazed that they can be so easily baited into losing their tempers over an internet argument - when really the only ones who end up looking stupid are the ones that do take it so seriously...
As for Joy English and Clark's comments - Im humbled - Clark obvious has more of an understanding from among his own friends than the majority of people I have talked to about that same school - I mean how dare I suggest that the majority of people I know who have worked for them or attended interviews felt the same way that I did - what would I know - I dont have the profound resources of Clark's superior social network at my hands...
Regarding the racism claim - the related to the actual Joy English head office - so please dont make assumptions before allowing me to clarify. |
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ramakentesh
Joined: 05 Mar 2005
Posts: 145
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| Posted: Tue Oct 11, 2005 8:18 am Post subject: |
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| Agreed - Joy English schools have a poor reputation among ESL teachers in Taipei. |
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clark.w.griswald
Joined: 06 Dec 2004
Posts: 2056
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| Posted: Tue Oct 11, 2005 8:53 am Post subject: |
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| ramakentesh wrote: |
| ...he would see that Clark cant stop trying to abonish or judge me - im arrogant, rude, sad, negative, etc, etc - and why would someone feel compelled to do that unless they felt inherantly inferior to the other person? |
You know that someone has nothing of any real value to offer when all they do in a post is try to insult others.
| ramakentesh wrote: |
| I didnt know that a person could judge the character of another based purely upon what they write on an anonymous forum - I'm amazed that Henry and Clark feel they can - |
This coming from someone who judges local Chinese by the their English language abilities. The same person who judges the curriculum of a school that has been around for 20 odd years based upon what others spoon feed him. And the same person who judges a whole company made up of over 200 schools in Taiwan alone, based upon an interview and demo class that probably lasted for about two hours at the most!
Unfortunately for you I happen tobe familiar enough with this particular school to have spotted which school you were talking about back in your first or second post on the subject. Since then I have corrected you on a number of occasions as you post incorrect and misleading information.
I don't judge people, I merely correct their mistakes, and if you feel that I spend a lot of time replying to your posts then that is because you make a lot of mistakes. Start researching before you post, and support your posts with something of some value and I will have no point to argue.
| ramakentesh wrote: |
| and Im equally amazed that they can be so easily baited into losing their tempers over an internet argument - |
I don't see anywhere in this thread where I, nor Henry, have lost our tempers. Nor do I see anywhere within this thread where I have been insulting toward you even though your comments within this thread are based on nothing but your own very limited opinion.
If anyone has been insulting and become angered then it is you yourself.
| ramakentesh wrote: |
| when really the only ones who end up looking stupid are the ones that do take it so seriously... |
I don't see that myself. The comments that you made were quite serious accusations and as I suspected from the outset they were based upon nothing more than the fact that you took offence to being offered a lower wage than what you thought you were worth. Rather than just accepting this, saying thank you very much, and finding another job, you took it upon yourself to come here and try to suggest that the school, the staff in the school, the system used by the school, and the curriculum used in the school were all suspect. I have pretty clearly outlined why you were mistaken and you in turn have failed to answer any direct questions on the subject of your post but have instead tried to turn the topic.
I don't think either of us are stupid, but I do believe that you have failed to prove your point even though you have had ample opportunity to do so, and I do believe that you have shown a weakness by trying to insult me merely because I disagree with you.
| ramakentesh wrote: |
| As for Joy English and Clark's comments - Im humbled - Clark obvious has more of an understanding from among his own friends than the majority of people I have talked to about that same school - I mean how dare I suggest that the majority of people I know who have worked for them or attended interviews felt the same way that I did - what would I know - I dont have the profound resources of Clark's superior social network at my hands... |
So what did these people say? What is it exactly that all of these people you mention have to say about Joy school that is so terrible? Surely that is a reasonable question. I have alreay outlined that in my opinion they are not perfect, but that they are also not deliberately misleading nor are they dishonest. So what do you want to say? What is it that in the experiences of all of these people - none of whom has ever posted on a public forum - want to say? If you are going to insinuate that there is some meat here then you might want to tell us all what it is?
Until you do I will stand by the comments already on record about this school, as well as the experiences of my friends that have worked there for many years, and that is that Joy is not a perfect school, but is definitely one of the best schools to work for in Taiwan if you don't want to have any hassles.
Now if you want to explain why this is wrong then please feel free to do so, otherwise you should just accept that others have a different point of view than yourself and that we don't all become bitter when things don't go our way.
| ramakentesh wrote: |
| Regarding the racism claim - the related to the actual Joy English head office - so please dont make assumptions before allowing me to clarify. |
How am I making assumptions? If you wanted to clarify then you should have done so when you posted the claim. What do you want us all to do - sit here and wait till you post a follow up post that clarifies your earlier posts?  Maybe if your posts were actually informative in the first place then there would be no need for you to post additional posts for clarification.
I am surprised that the 'racist' experience you referred to apparently happened in a branch owned schools. I can't comment too much about the independantly owned franchise schools, and in fact I am sure that some of them are pretty well racist. I am however equally sure that head office isn't, and I base this upon the fact that I am pretty familiar with some of the branch schools.
Ok, so now we know that you are referring to head office run branch schools only, of which there are only around eight. I am not exactly sure how many foreign teachers work within these eight schools at this present time, but my guess is around 30-40. As each of these is administered directly by head office as far as all hirings and firings I think it safe to assume that the make up of teachers at one branch school would accurately reflect the make up of teachers at the other branch schools. Let me pick two in Taipei that I am familiar with:
School A - has three foreign teachers. Two of them are black Americans with nice shiny bald heads, one of whom is 45 years old roughly, and the other definitely over 35. The third teacher is a whitey. So that's 66% percent 'minority' teachers.
School B - has around eleven teachers, four of whom are overseas born Chinese. There are two Australians, two South Africans, one from the UK, two from the US. Again, close to a third of the teachers are 'minorities'.
I know that there are at least three other black teachers, and two other overseas Chinese at other branch schools in Taipei, which probably results in a 'minority' population of around 30-40% in all the branch schools. Does this seem suggestive of racism within the company owned branch schools? I can think of plenty of other schools that have probably never ever had a 'minority' teacher, so I think that you are barking up the wrong tree here. Yet again you do appear to be mistaken.
Of course I don't know which of the branch schools you are talking about, but from the above information, and based upon the fact that Joy head office obviously does hire 'minorities', it does seem more and more likely that your friend was fired for something other than the color of his skin. Maybe he prefers to claim that it was the color of his skin, maybe he really believes that to be true, but if we look at the make-up of the other teachers there I think it becomes clear that there must be more to his firing than either he is telling you, or than he realizes. |
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teacha
Joined: 25 Aug 2005
Posts: 186
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| Posted: Tue Oct 11, 2005 9:04 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| Much of what has been said about Joy over the years by past and present teachers can be found on the buxiban website. |
Dude......Are you high? I can't even believe your meglamania here. Buxiban.comeon is not the authority on the word about town. |
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teacha
Joined: 25 Aug 2005
Posts: 186
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| Posted: Tue Oct 11, 2005 9:21 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| What is it that in the experiences of all of these people - none of whom has ever posted on a public forum - want to say? ........ I can't comment too much about the independantly owned franchise schools, and in fact I am sure that some of them are pretty well racist. |
OMFG !!!!!! Clark, I can't beleive you!! Are you google Brian? I'm sure forumosa ha complaints on Joy, as does buxiban watch, or somewhere......BUT YOU ARE POSITIVE THERE IS NOTHING ONLINE.......Cookooo.....Cukoooo.. |
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