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ramakentesh
Joined: 05 Mar 2005
Posts: 145
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 Posted: Sat Oct 15, 2005 12:46 pm Post subject: |
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| yes its true clark i have to lower myself to demonstrating the inherant flaws in your posts - and if that is what you regard as an insult then im again found guilty... |
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ramakentesh
Joined: 05 Mar 2005
Posts: 145
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| Posted: Sat Oct 15, 2005 1:09 pm Post subject: |
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By the way - have you noticed that Aristotle has been quiet since my arrival? Maybe I have taken over his role unintentionally...  |
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Frankie Knuckles
Joined: 30 Sep 2003
Posts: 36
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| Posted: Sat Oct 15, 2005 1:45 pm Post subject: |
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Ramakentesh,
I haven't read every post on this thread so please forgive me if I misunderstand the facts. I believe you had a bad experience while doing a demo to teachers and other Taiwanese staff at a Joy school. I can sympathise with you if they were giving you a hard time. I could imagine that being a bit intimidating if you hadn't had any prior experience teaching in Taiwan. However, I think your generalised criticism of Joy schools may be a little over the top. I didn't work for Joy but my Taiwanese girlfriend did and it didn't seem like her particular branch was that bad a place to work for. I knew some of the foreign teachers at her school and they told me they were quite happy there. I also did a demo for a different Joy school in Taichung back in July 2004. I didn't do it in front of teachers or staff but in front of students. I taught a regular class with only one Taiwanese staff member observing. I actually really enjoyed teaching that class and had alot of fun that day. The assistant manager who watched the class was full of praise. All of the administration staff were really friendly to me and were so welcoming. It was actually a refreshing change from the school I was trying to leave. Surprisingly they offered me 600NT per hour as a starting wage which was well above their minimum of 550NT an hour. I did a number of demos when I was seriously considering leaving another school I was unhappy with. In July/August 2004 I was doing the demos in front of students and not groups of staff members. While it is natural to feel a bit nervous during demonstrations I didn't have any bad experiences while I was doing them. I did six demos at different schools cos I just wanted to see what was out there. I was actually offered every job I went for which I thought was a bit surprising cos I don't think I am the world's best teacher. I didn't end up accepting any of the jobs I was offered even though I wanted to because the school I was working for wouldn't let me leave before 1 month and even then they seemed very unhappy about it. None of the schools I wanted to work for could wait a whole month so I had to let the offers go.
I just wanted to share my experience with you because I think you seem to think all Joy schools are the same. Chain schools all over Taiwan are very different from each other. Having the same curriculum and same name does not mean same standards. There are good and bad apples within every chain school. I am sure there are some awful branches within Joy but I also believe there are some reasonably good ones too. A franchise company name in most countries would usually mean a certain standard of quality is upheld throughout. However, I think in Taiwan especially with English chain schools this is not the case.
I know you have posted on another thread where I was arguing with Clark about the unfair treatment I received from another chain school. So you are aware that I am not blind to the problems with English schools in Taiwan like he is. I have suffered first hand through my blacklisting so I am totally aware of the dodgy practices employed by some schools. However, I still think it is difficult to make valid generalisations about an entire chain school. As angry as I am with my former school my criticism of them is directed at the particular branch which I worked for, not every school which uses their name. |
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Henry_Cowell
Joined: 27 May 2005
Posts: 3352
Location: Berkeley
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| Posted: Sat Oct 15, 2005 5:48 pm Post subject: |
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| Frankie Knuckles wrote: |
Ramakentesh,
I haven't read every post on this thread so please forgive me if I misunderstand the facts. I believe you had a bad experience while doing a demo to teachers and other Taiwanese staff at a Joy school. |
And that's it. "ramakentesh" had ONE bad experience. Nothing else. Whereas Clark relies on information about MANY experiences from MANY people in Taiwan.
The first is called an "anecdote". The second is called "data". |
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clark.w.griswald
Joined: 06 Dec 2004
Posts: 2056
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| Posted: Sun Oct 16, 2005 1:33 am Post subject: |
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| ramakentesh wrote: |
| Since I never actually valued Clark's opinion on this topic because it was already preconceived from the start I never bothered to really enter into it in the first place. |
As I have said before, a quick look at the earlier posts in this thread shows quite clearly that my intention was to help you understand a situation that it seemed you had misunderstood. I think that your posts since then have shown pretty clearly that you didn't come here to understand what you thought was unreasonable treatment but instead to complain. Fair enough.
I didn't really develop an opinion of you until you failed to answer any of the questions that were asked by myself and other users of this board. It has become clear through your posting that you just insult the people who disagree with you. You make this discussion board personal, when in fact you should discuss the topic not the people in the topic.
| ramakentesh wrote: |
| You see Im finding it amusing that you still dont seem to understand the basic idea that only you and clark see this as a competition - Im not here to compete with you guys - I need to actually value your opinions to warrant concern. |
How wrong you are!
I don't see this as a competition at all. I see this forum as an opportunity to share my experiences over the last decade with the very people that need this information. I never get involved in discussions that I know nothing about, and the fact that I have been so involved in this thread is not because I want to 'win' but because I am more familiar than yourself with the system that you came here to trash, and I can clearly see where you have gotten things wrong. The fact that I knew exactly which school you were talking about without the need for you to name it pretty clearly shows that I am familiar enough with that company to know what you were talking about.
| ramakentesh wrote: |
| Clark - you really need me to validate your opinion dont you? Funny thing is anyone here who read this thread would agree with me and you know it... |
Sounds to me like you are the one who sees this discussion as a competition not me.
I do tend to disagree though. Anyone who knew neither of us and who read through this thread would surely see that your posts were emotive and based upon a single experience that you had with some staff in this school that was not in your favor. You then extrapolated this across as an insult against the whole network of over 200 schools, and the system that has been developed by people with more Taiwan teaching experience and more qualifications than the both of us combined.
I think that these people would see that your posts avoid answering specific and relevant questions, and that the obvious and only reason that you would do this is that you are fully aware that answering these questions honestly would derail your whole opinion.
I believe that the people who do support you are probably people who don't neccessarily agree with you but rather disagree with me as I may have had discussions with them in the past.
Frankie Knuckles is a clear exception and I respect him for the fact that even though we have had our differences of opinion on certain subjects, he still argues the point rather than the person. That says a lot about him in my book.
| ramakentesh wrote: |
| I answer questions when people treat me opinion with respect - not put words in my mouth and judge me before they even know the facts - since you presumed to do both why would I want to argue with you or provide you with more facts. |
Yeah right. You answer questions when you know that the answer will help prove your point. You fail to answer questions when you know otherwise. It's that simple. |
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blueboy
Joined: 02 Jul 2004
Posts: 27
Location: Seattle, Wa
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| Posted: Sun Oct 16, 2005 1:42 pm Post subject: |
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To be fair Clark, I'm sure that you have a good point to make, but you could try to be more sensitive in the presentation. In your first reply, right off the bat, you said:
"Judging by the way that you describe the experience, I am guessing that you didn't show the patience that they had hoped for, and as such my guess is that they quite honestly didn't prefer you as a teacher for their school."
Already you're telling this teacher that they are bad at their job, and nobody likes to hear that. You shouldn't make such judgements about people who you really don't know. I think that this post really turned the thread into a catfight, and it didn't have to be that way. |
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Ki
Joined: 23 Jul 2004
Posts: 475
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| Posted: Sun Oct 16, 2005 2:12 pm Post subject: |
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Legal and illegal do not necessitate right and wrong. It looks like the school's decision to have demos conducted by other staff members is forward thinking but I'd rather demo with students. I think you would get better results and a closer understanding to the real teaching situation.
I have done a demo with staff members before and it was okay, certainly none of the difficulties discussed earlier. I have also done group interviews where the other applicants and I had taken it in turn to act the students. This wasn't bad at all. |
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clark.w.griswald
Joined: 06 Dec 2004
Posts: 2056
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| Posted: Mon Oct 17, 2005 1:13 am Post subject: |
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| blueboy wrote: |
| To be fair Clark, I'm sure that you have a good point to make, but you could try to be more sensitive in the presentation. |
Sure I can accept that the black and white of message forums such as this one can sometimes be very stark and confrontational. Personally, I believe that the sentence you quoted is not offensive and is in fact accurate, but I do accept that people have different sensitivities. It's lucky that I didn't say what I really wanted to say in that earlier post 
| blueboy wrote: |
| Already you're telling this teacher that they are bad at their job, and nobody likes to hear that. You shouldn't make such judgements about people who you really don't know. |
Again I accept that people read things differently, but as the one who actually wrote it I guess that I can understand what I wrote better than anyone.
From my point of view this person came here to attack a process that he obviously knew very little about. I conceeded in my earlier posts that there was a failing on the school's behalf to not have made the process clear to the teacher, however this does not take away from the results. The result was that after conducting the demo, the teacher was offered the minimum possible wage. I know for a fact that the only reason this is done is if a teacher fails to impress the training team enough to warrant a higher wage. Judging by the manner in which this person spoke about the process, the staff involved, and the school itself, I don't think that I am out of line to suggest that patience may have been lacking in the demo, and when dealing with kids in a classroom situation patience is one of our greatest virtues.
I believe that my post has been consistent with this information.
| Ki wrote: |
| Legal and illegal do not necessitate right and wrong. |
I am not sure what you mean by this. What I can say though is that foreign teachers always complain about schools breaking the law and acting illegally. Here you have a school that chooses to act legally and invests the time and money to have several of their staff conduct the demo class, and you still have people criticizing them for this. It just seems hypocritical to me that someone would come here and criticize this company for what he claims was dishonest business practices, and then in the same breath say how good another school is that clearly acted illegally by allowing or asking him to conduct a demo in front of real students. I am not suggesting that he should like the company that didn't offer him the wage that he wanted, but disliking them for this does not warrant coming here and suggesting that the whole company is shonky.
It seems that some people will complain about anything as long as they don't get their own way and this cheapens complaints in my view. I really feel that we should concentrate on the major problems that foreign teachers face in Taiwan than to whinge and whine about every little thing that we don't personally disagree with. Surely this is the only way to effect change and actually create a situation where the worst situation you are likely to face in Taiwan is a dreaded demo in front of one's peers.
| Ki wrote: |
| It looks like the school's decision to have demos conducted by other staff members is forward thinking but I'd rather demo with students. I think you would get better results and a closer understanding to the real teaching situation. |
This is not really an argument about whether it is better to demo in front of staff or students. There are clearly advantages and disadvantages to both depending upon what you are hoping to acheive. The fact remains however that doing demo's in front of students is illegal and I would certainly be wary of any school that wanted me to act illegally even before I even signed the contract. Surely that is a good indication of what is likely to follow after you have signed a contract and committed to that school. |
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Ki
Joined: 23 Jul 2004
Posts: 475
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| Posted: Mon Oct 17, 2005 4:12 am Post subject: |
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Yes, the fact does remain that demos in front of students are illegal and demos in front of staff are legal. I think. It does look like that this school is looking forwards in how it conducts its demos. Was this way instigated by clark.w.griswald perhaps?
I just don't think that it is black and white to call it right for schools to do it this way and wrong for schools to still conduct demos with students. Maybe it is. I just think that it is more subjective. But that's just me being pedantic. |
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ramakentesh
Joined: 05 Mar 2005
Posts: 145
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| Posted: Sun Oct 23, 2005 12:37 pm Post subject: |
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Message boards designed to provide discussion and advice among humans are only 'stark and confrontational' to robots. Clark tells me 'how wrong I am' because in a robotic world where there only right and wrong one could probably think that way... maybe...
As it has been pointed out repeatedly in this thread, Clark likes to judge people who dont prescribe to his world-view - the tone was that way from the start.
I did go out and judge the entire Joy school based on my one experience, but only after I talked to a bunch of other teachers who had had other negative experiences. Im sure there are good joy branches out there - somwhere...
But in comparison to all the other job interviews that I went to, Joy's was a glaring anomoly of almost humourous preportions.
I understand what people have said here recently. Im looking at this from a position of my opinion - I believe it was a ridiculous situation - you can read all my previous posts on the topic to see exactly why it was unprofessional and Im sure you will agree. |
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clark.w.griswald
Joined: 06 Dec 2004
Posts: 2056
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| Posted: Mon Oct 24, 2005 1:09 am Post subject: |
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| ramakentesh wrote: |
| I understand what people have said here recently. Im looking at this from a position of my opinion - I believe it was a ridiculous situation - you can read all my previous posts on the topic to see exactly why it was unprofessional and Im sure you will agree. |
As I stated earlier on you are entitled to your opinion, but lets not kid ourselves about the motivation behind this opinion. An opinion about a large company based upon perhaps an hour in their offices during the interview process. An opinion about their curriculum based upon a cursory glance through some of their texts. You never actually worked there, nor did you actually even step inside one of their schools. Yet you feel qualified to make judgements about the quality of the interview process, the quality of the curriculum. The quality of the staff. And the integrity of the whole network. All based upon a one hour interview, oh and the comments of a bunch of people of unknown origin and who may or may not have even worked for this school, but may instead be joining the chain school bash. Why? Because you didn't get what you wanted, and like a spoiled kid you are trying to turn everyone against them.
My opinion that Joy is a reputable school is not based upon emotion. It is based upon my research of schools over the years, and the content of comments from past teachers over the years about this company. Additionally, I have good friends who have worked there long term, both foreigners and Chinese. I wouldn't say that it is perfect, but I can say with some certainty that it is not the type of school that rips teachers off nor acts dishonestly to teachers. This is pretty clearly the case as the company has likely employed thousands of teachers over 25 years but there is not a single serious complaint to be found anywhere about this company.
So this discussion all comes down to the bitterness of one individual who by his own admission knows little about the company, but is bitter because he wasn't offered the wage and conditions that he felt he was entitled to.
I don't see this discussion being so much about this particular company as it is about the fact that some foreigners seem to feel that they have the right to slander a company because they didn't get what they wanted. They don't come out with honest comments (which is why these people generally avoid answering pointed questions on the topic) but instead attempt to make the offending company or individual sound as bad as possible (a friend of a friend told me...), in an effort to make their complaint seem more legitimate. It really seems that plain and simple.
One of my main aims in recent years has been in attempting to help newbies understand Taiwan and avoid schools that have bad reputations while at the same time promoting schools that have good reputations. Complaints such as the one that have been made about Joy are counterproductive as they muddy the waters, and all in an effort for one person to pursue his own personal agenda. |
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ramakentesh
Joined: 05 Mar 2005
Posts: 145
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| Posted: Thu Oct 27, 2005 11:20 am Post subject: |
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| Clark do you get paid for your work with bushibans on your website? |
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Henry_Cowell
Joined: 27 May 2005
Posts: 3352
Location: Berkeley
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| Posted: Thu Oct 27, 2005 3:12 pm Post subject: |
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| ramakentesh, do you get paid by Joy's competitors? |
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