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shonisan
Joined: 23 Sep 2005
Posts: 338
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 Posted: Sun Oct 16, 2005 4:14 am Post subject: |
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Oh, and Canilx is now Westborne.  |
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halroach
Joined: 04 Oct 2005
Posts: 43
Location: Beijing
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| Posted: Sun Oct 16, 2005 1:03 pm Post subject: |
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Shonisan,
I found your comments in your reply to Babbala clear and compelling. The last ones are incoherent. (This is not ad hominem, I simply don't get them.)
Lots of things have improved since the 70s. It does not follw quod erat demonstrandum that Web are now doing it right. Behaviorism failed then and it still fails. I bet the people behind Web wouldn't know the difference bewtween behaviorist theory and the Jerry Springer show anyway.
The multi-media ponzi scheme will fail as it has in Europe.
Is 'Westborne' up and running? |
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shonisan
Joined: 23 Sep 2005
Posts: 338
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| Posted: Sun Oct 16, 2005 1:57 pm Post subject: |
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| halroach wrote: |
Shonisan,
I found your comments in your reply to Babbala clear and compelling. The last ones are incoherent. (This is not ad hominem, I simply don't get them.)
Lots of things have improved since the 70s. It does not follw quod erat demonstrandum that Web are now doing it right. Behaviorism failed then and it still fails. I bet the people behind Web wouldn't know the difference bewtween behaviorist theory and the Jerry Springer show anyway.
The multi-media ponzi scheme will fail as it has in Europe.
Is 'Westborne' up and running? |
Westborne ... Yes ... well, I taught a class for them yesterday morning so I certainly hope so. (I do independent consulting teaching business classes)
You have probably guessed by now that I am not a fan of Web International however, your characterization of a 'Ponzi Scheme' either shows that you have no knowledge of what a Ponzi Scheme is or you imagine that McDonalds is also a Ponzi Scheme.
The correct term is 'franchise' ... the delivery of a successful business model to an inexperienced investor to ensure a greater return from an initial investment coupled with a consolodated national advertising campaign.
I have found that using books in a classroom situation, delivering scripts for memorization and vocabulary lists ... the standard fare of most schools ... to be merely an extension of what the students have already been through for their whole school ediucation here in China.
It has already proven to be a flawed system since the students are going back to school in an effort to gain the power of speech.
Now, while it is entirely possible for a teacher to drill a student in the correct pronunciation of the words in the list and the subsequent scripts of 'What to say when you meet the immigration man at the airport' or the 'How to book a convention in Prague' from the BEC manual, this is all contingent upon the student making it to the class and waiting his turn to express his sentences maybe once or twice ... the reality is he will fall far short of the standard pronunciation repetition of 30X should he manage to make it to the class.
All things being perfect however, the student is still learning scripts and has no actual comprehension guarantee. Should the student fall behind in his understanding ... well, that concept falls by the wayside and it is not addressed until the assessment at the end of the course that says the student either passes or fails.
You say the Computer assisted training consists of testing ... yes it does. When a student feels he has mastered the concepts of each Unit, they are allowed to take a test... Correct!!! The student starts of a randomly generated test that has about 1,000 ways of asking concepts of increasing difficulty ... VERBALLY ... to see if the student has mastered the aims of each unit.
Unlike written tests used in most schools, the student is never greeted with the same test in succession or the same difficulty level. In this way, concepts are mastered not scripts or lists.
The student is also allowed to progress at their own speed and not carried along by the success of the majority of the class.
Can you honestly say that in a standard classroom situation that you have not had an incident where you realized you were teaching to the median and knew you were losing the slower students and failing the advanced ones in your class? Did you volunteer your time to take those slow students and give them on-on-one tutoring for several hours to bring them up to speed?
In the Web model, the students can go over and over the material until they are sure of the concepts and structures AND there are always tutors on duty to aid the student on areas that give each individual student problems. The model simply does not allow the student to progress through the units until they master each concept.
There are flaws with all systems of teaching.
In the case of Web, the flaw is the local management. I have seen them place a person rated at an intermediate into a business course because of Guanxi and pride and then condemn the teachers for failing the students when they demonstrated a total lack of grasp of the concepts. In this case however, the teacher has the advantage of pointing to the model and saying that the student did not fulfil the course materials or requirements.
In the case of a standard teaching method, the student automatically gets the pass. He bought his diploma when he paid the fees. Is he even required to warm the seat after the cash changes hands?
You can't do that with a computer. |
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halroach
Joined: 04 Oct 2005
Posts: 43
Location: Beijing
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| Posted: Mon Oct 17, 2005 3:27 am Post subject: |
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I don't want to get offensive, but at the level of pedagogics, this is absurd babble. You deliver it in haughty tones tones (explaining franhcising) and claiming to be a 'consultant', rather than a plain old teacher. Why would you want to defend this non-system and indulge in such piffle?
As of yet, we have no generally accepted theory of language acquisition, still less a piece of software that could mimic it. (If Web are truly in possession of such, they could make their millions by simply realeasing it to the scientific community.) Most areas of LA study concern the brain, memory, perception, etc. No scientifically produced piece of software claims to have even the remotest chance of doing that right now. (I'm also very familiar with how EF produced their software- a bunch of disgruntled, unqualified teacers who did it becasue they hated being in the classroom.)The idea that they had cracked language acqusisition is a beyond risible.
Wall Street: 150 schools, now 17 = ponzi scheme collapses.
Canilx: Copy the Wall Street system = collapse.
Web: copy everything Wall Street did, including the inevitable collapse = ponzi scheme. |
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shonisan
Joined: 23 Sep 2005
Posts: 338
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| Posted: Mon Oct 17, 2005 3:40 am Post subject: |
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| halroach wrote: |
I don't want to get offensive, but at the level of pedagogics, this is absurd babble. You deliver it in haughty tones tones (explaining franhcising) and claiming to be a 'consultant', rather than a plain old teacher. Why would you want to defend this non-system and indulge in such piffle?
As of yet, we have no generally accepted theory of language acquisition, still less a piece of software that could mimic it. (If Web are truly in possession of such, they could make their millions by simply realeasing it to the scientific community.) Most areas of LA study concern the brain, memory, perception, etc. No scientifically produced piece of software claims to have even the remotest chance of doing that right now. (I'm also very familiar with how EF produced their software- a bunch of disgruntled, unqualified teacers who did it becasue they hated being in the classroom.)The idea that they had cracked language acqusisition is a beyond risible.
Wall Street: 150 schools, now 17 = ponzi scheme collapses.
Canilx: Copy the Wall Street system = collapse.
Web: copy everything Wall Street did, including the inevitable collapse = ponzi scheme. |
Well, wince you have just dismissed what I have just said with one word 'piffle' denied me the right to the title as stated in the company I own, described software produced inhouse at one company and applied it to another designed somewhere else and continued to use the word 'Ponzi' incorrectly, I think we can safely assume you're just here trolling and not interested in actually talking about anything.
There's not much left to say then except 'see ya'. |
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halroach
Joined: 04 Oct 2005
Posts: 43
Location: Beijing
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| Posted: Mon Oct 17, 2005 3:59 am Post subject: |
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Take your ball and run home.
Nobody denied you anything - it's a discussion. |
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vikdk
Joined: 25 Jun 2003
Posts: 1676
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| Posted: Mon Oct 17, 2005 6:59 am Post subject: |
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Halroach you are dead right � teaching methods in places like Web International School reflect a long dead paradigm in the west � science is stronger than nature � and a false educational philosophy � education is a science.
Learning is a natural process, which if conducted in harmony with natural development and personal interest can be fun for all taking part � stick learning into the �scientific environment� of the language lab then we start to turn our pupils into lab rats!
Pedagogy � no pedagogy in the lab � just money hungry investors! |
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shonisan
Joined: 23 Sep 2005
Posts: 338
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| Posted: Mon Oct 17, 2005 10:45 am Post subject: |
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| halroach wrote: |
Take your ball and run home.
Nobody denied you anything - it's a discussion. |
Nahhh ...
You pulled a Monty Python.
You came in with your latest post saying "Is not!" and not much else.
You weren't to far off saying ... "I'd like to have an argument please".
A discussion is give and take.
When you discover that the exchange of information is a two sided thing and have the respect enough to use reason without resorting to dismissal of arguments as 'piffle', you just might be mistaken for human. |
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halroach
Joined: 04 Oct 2005
Posts: 43
Location: Beijing
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| Posted: Mon Oct 17, 2005 11:37 am Post subject: |
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Er, in a discussion, you're supposed say why it is not piffle. Not sulk because someone used the term.
Jeez, this is basic stuff... |
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Babala
Joined: 28 Jan 2005
Posts: 1303
Location: Henan
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| Posted: Tue Oct 18, 2005 9:59 am Post subject: |
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halroach,
Being able to write grammar and correctly use it when speaking are two different issues. How many times have you heard Chinese use the wrong grammar when speaking? Where do think Chinglish came from? I have worked at Web for almost two now and I think the computer software learning coupled with small classes with FT's is the best way for adults to study English. |
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juliagirl
Joined: 24 May 2005
Posts: 69
Location: California
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| Posted: Wed Nov 02, 2005 1:43 pm Post subject: |
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If the Web system didn't work they wouldn't still be growing...
It's a good one.... I've taught in universities, in high schools, and kindtergardens...
I've been around... and I can say, from a teacher who has been employed back in the states, who has been offered positions in international schools etc... the system works... and the students don't pay to repeat lessons they have not passed. And no, we are not pressured to pass them. But that is ONLY my personal experience...
Maybe most teachers there are men, but not all.. |
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Robert0007
Joined: 22 Jul 2006
Posts: 16
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| Posted: Mon Aug 21, 2006 4:00 pm Post subject: Be careful when considering wenzhou web |
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25 teaching hours ok normal, but add 20 more office hours to that for a salary of 6,000RMB = no more than 45 rmb an hour. Only what 10 days paid holidays big deal.
These bosses will cheat you and make you clock in and out. It has been the worst web school of the chain. They paid a 30 grand fine to the police for having foreign teachers with no working visas because they have no license. The bosses are not managers and they will not talk to you because they just sit in their offices as silent investors cross their fingers that they get more students. I have seen parents walk in their offices and scream about that they want their money back.
To top all it off they will give the worst apartment ever. only offering 1200 a month. They have gone through 16 foreign teachers in 1 year when they only need 5. Not one today has finished a 1 year contract. |
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Malsol
Joined: 06 Mar 2006
Posts: 1976
Location: Lanzhou
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| Posted: Mon Aug 21, 2006 11:34 pm Post subject: |
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A McWeb job is not as bad as some. But it is still a McJob.
Actually their teaching materials are inappropriate in most instances. Many were designed for Business training groups and it is very difficult to justify using them in private lessons of one or two students.
Many Web students prefer to "free talk" rather than use the boring materials. |
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gulam2
Joined: 19 May 2005
Posts: 137
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| Posted: Sat Aug 26, 2006 11:59 am Post subject: |
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I worked in a Web franchise in Yiwu for 18 months as a Dean.
They were using Auralog which I thought was a good package and saw a lot of progress from serious students. I actually think that system works quite well. They switched to Dyned an American system that I was not so keen on.
As for the owner of the Web franchise that had little use in Greg's training
I certainly would have empathy for his view point.
I think the big problem with Web is not so much the systems but the management and marketing.
I would be very interested to hear other views on Web.
If you dont want to go on the forum e-mail me at [email protected] |
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butlerian
Joined: 24 Feb 2007
Posts: 9
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| Posted: Mon Apr 09, 2007 2:39 am Post subject: |
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| Anyone have any updates on the situation in Suzhou? |
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