Job Discussion Forums

[Starry Night]

Hello,

This is my second posting about this topic.

I'm currently in my second year of ESL. My first year was spent teaching high school, which I found challenging at the time, only to realise now that the student's quietness would be something I missed.

I realize how much I took for granted, now I'm teaching (and I use that word loosely) middle school (Grades 1 and 2). These students are verbally out of control. The noise level is incredible and once it starts, the only solution is to get a Chinese teacher to stop it. Why? The kids respect/fear their Chinese teachers and they're actually being graded on those classes.

I admit, I am very sensitive and find it hard to discipline because when I get angry, I get upset and even a trip to the office hardly makes a dent in the child's behaviour when they are just as noisy the next week.

I realize the problem is partly cultural, when a lot of my students are only children and rarely disciplined at home. Yes, people do talk a LOT louder here as well (noise stresses me out incredibly, even when they're discussing English I can't handle it).

So far, I've asked for Chinese teachers to sit in and help me with my classes. This happens rarely, I understand time constraints are an issue, but so far I've had little success disciplining the children myself.

Lately, I've actually been leaving the room, sitting outside and waiting to see what happens. The students get the message, are quiet and five minutes later, noisy again! There's always an apology, but I tell them not to bother, 'cause it doesn't mean a thing!

I wonder the best way to handle it. Should I leave it and not care (the Chinese teachers clearly don't)? Should I accept I can't change their upbringing and their vocal culture?

Sometimes, I feel at wits end and I cry a lot. I'd appreciate some helpful advice please!

[tw]

For starters, you may want to tell us something about your lessons. Do your students do any group/pairt work or is it just reciting? Do you give them a topic and hope that they would participate?

[kev7161]

I had this exact same problem last year. I tried so many things. I had 10 different groups. 3-4 were really good and a pleasure to teach. A couple were "so-so"; sometimes we had good days, sometimes bad. The rest were just dreadful and, no matter what I tried, wouldn't amount to anything. For awhile I fought against them, asked time and again for administrative help, even tried bargaining and bribing. If anything worked, it was certainly short-term. And I NEVER got help from directors, principals, or most Chinese teachers.

I hate to say it, but if they (your colleagues) aren't helping you now, they have no plans to help you later. Generally, the students are always "right" and the stupid foreign teacher just doesn't know what he/she is doing. You have to make decisions such as: will you stay or go? will you give up and just show DVDs? will you continue to fight? will you try some different tactics unitl you find something that works?

Some teenagers can be the best kids ever, some I'd like to strangle . . .

[therock]

Tell the little brats to shut up!!

[Midlothian Mapleheart]

Edited to remove offensive content.

Middy

[Roger]

Go back to the old-fashioned teaching of droning on and on, with your "students" being held captive and forced to take notes and possibly regurgitate verbatim what you lectured them.
They only "respect" those teachers who show no compassion, passion and empathy!

[clomper]

I'm teaching junior middle school students and I also have this problem. In one class, I already warned them that if they are noisy again in my next class, I won't let them out till 12:30pm. Hehe.. next class, they were noisy.. I came prepared with some snacks for myself. I didn't let them out till 12:30pm.. After that incident, they're behaved.

In my other classes, if they're noisy, I usually shut up and they'll get the hint. In some, I inform their head teacher. The head teacher will reprimand the class at the same time, he/she will visit once in a while in my class just to check the students' behavior.

I wonder why are they noisy in our class while they're behaved with their chinese-english teachers.

[kev7161]

[Starry Night]

[erinyes]

This might seem a bit odd, but if the CTs are telling you to be more lively and active, then what are they saying about you to the students???

I have noticed a VAST difference in the attitude of the classes at my school, and I know that some of the teachers tell the students to really practice and that spoken English is very important.

If the CT tells the students that you're important the students will listen to them.

I don't know what you can do, perhaps take them to dinner, maybe talk to them strongly, maybe just be very friendly. Anyway - if you get the teachers to tell the students that spoken English is important then I'm sure you'll have an instant change.

[profile]

Get the class monitors and discipline teachers to work with you.

Isolate the worst students and get parents involved.

Make a system of clear rewards and punishments.

Consider breaking them into teams, by seating rows. Add or deduct points for good or bad behaviour. At the end of the week, give the "winning" team members a small treat.

Do the old-fashioned style for a while. Keep them busy with writing tasks like dictation(even though it is a speaking class). Perhaps go back to the group work when they improve. Ring a bell to signal it is time to shut up and listen to you. Drill them to follow gestures such as "look at the board", listen" etc. Be imperious and wait for silence.

Structure the class in the same way each time. Routine is good.

Best of luck,

Don't give up. They can smell weakness This is a tough crowd you have; be tough back.

[Roger]

WHy are they so undisciplined? The reason - in my humble opinion! - is that the division of labour, with us doing "oral English" classes and Chinese teachers doing "substantive" work is eminently misguided.
It creates a twotier teacher pecking-order, with, ironically, the less competent (often, not always!) Chinese English teachers being the driving forces.
They have it in their power to discipline their students, but you haven't; so you will want them to cooperate with you - but that is not what you will get! In fact, they may exploit this to their own advantage, telling everyone and especially the principal you cannot handle their students (and Chinese studnets are always, never forget this: "very good, diligent and hard-working and ah so friendly to foreigners..."!).
The Chinese teachers probably feel squeezed between their own students and someone who can for the first time make a judgement on their English that may be at variance with the opinion of those Chinse teachers.

We wouldn't be needed if these teachers did their job in a more professional way: an English teacher ought to speak English with his students, full stop! He should NOT have to act as interpreter for half of the whole classroom time!
Acting as cultural brdigebuilders and "interpreters" (how much gets lost in their funny translations?) - Chinese students never learn to communicate on their own in the target language, hence the minute they are forced to do so with you they need help - and ask their own peers! Or they create havoc.

[hengyangdave]

my fav is to get them to copy the past units work again for me.....set them say 3 units of words (hundreds). But be careful, the chinese teacher will also do this so the smart ones will find that paper and submit that......ask them to do it with say English - Chinese - pinyin or something new so they cant cheat....

when i get this angry....i resort to chinese and give them all my opinion.....and the scream COPY!

[struelle]

This is interesting, as I've faced these kinds of class mgmt scenarios both when I taught HS in China, and now in my home country. So while there are cultural differences, the similarities in teenage behavior are significant ... I've learned a lot this year on how to manage classes better.

The best tip I can offer is to let the students know that you're the teacher and you're running the show. Your authority may be somewhat compromised by the fact you're a foreigner and teaching 'oral English' ... but you're still in charge! The situation is not unlike my own, where I am now a student teacher and the 'real teacher' is my sponsor teacher, who tends to hang out in the staff room a lot.

What helps me is to be authoritative, but not authoritarian. The former is based on reason and questioning the purpose of rules, the latter is just following rules for the sake of rules.

Once you get a handle on the authority issue, the rest of classroom mgmt is easier. Clear expectations of your own rules and consequences is excellent. A due process makes sense. If students do A, then B will happen. If B doesn't work, crank up the discipline to C, and so forth.

Involving class monitors and Chinese teachers is a nice part of this due process. Let students know that you'll 'appeal' their neglect of your rules to someone with more authority. I did this once in an ESL class when students wouldn't stop talking after I asked them many times. When that didn't work, I stopped teaching. I reached for the phone, saying I would call their sponsor teacher right in front of the whole class. They all shut up real quick and I didn't have to make the call.

My strategy is to rely almost exclusively on lower level class mgmt, even when it's not the most effective. The rationale is that I always have higher-level strategies up my sleeve that are extremely effective if I ever use them. I also love this idea because students may not anticipate you bringing out the bigger guns, and you get the surprise element working in your favor.

In my case, the students may think my nearly exclusive use of lower-level discipline means that's all I can do, but it's not the case. Ironically, having the 'big guns' at my disposal means I'm more confident and skilled at using the 'little guns'.

Steve

[Don McChesney]

Use peer pressure to control.
If a group of students is noisy, tell the rest of the class everyone will be punished because 'they' let it happen. Many classes are a coherent group, and they back each other up.
So let them know. If anyone doesn't shut up, on cue, you will time the delay, and note it on the board in minutes. They stay after the bell has gone to make up the time, even if this means they get no break before the next class.
It only takes one such action for the rest of the class to start to control the problem ones. Students can learn really quickly, when it suits them.
After a good class, give a 5 minute early 'class over' signal, so they also learn about rewards for good behaviour.
Have fun. You are the teacher, and you are in control.