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gZo
Joined: 14 Oct 2005
Posts: 15
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 Posted: Tue Oct 25, 2005 6:35 am Post subject: Teach as German/American with out degree? |
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Hi everyone,
I got following questions/problem;
I'm a 27 year old German/American and about to head off to Japan.
So far I got no Degree and my English skills are not the best either.
I speak fluently, but my vocabulary shrunk enormously the past years.
Well, at least I'm working on it. Trying to pass the Cambridge advanced certificate examination, befor I'm coming. Honestly, not really sure if I will. I defiantly will apply for the WHV with my German Passport in order to get a valid Visa to be able to work right away with out any hassle and in fact, I would not get one with my American Passport I guess.
I would prefer to do some conversational tudoring in German, because my German skills are way, way better then in English. However,
Do you think I would have at least small chances to get a teaching job in one of those two languages with out further education. I think if I would apply to a English teaching job a have to gain more knowlege first and if I do so with my German Passport I think I'll have not the best chances.
Just curious because I did not find S*** about teaching German anywhere,
just heard that some do. But the varaity of English teaching jobs seems endless.
I would be happy if someone share with me his/her experiences who had maybe the same, same, but different circumstances.  
Thanks for any answers!
cheers! |
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abufletcher
Joined: 14 Sep 2005
Posts: 779
Location: Shikoku Japan (for now)
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| Posted: Tue Oct 25, 2005 7:02 am Post subject: |
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Honestly, nonnative speakers, even those with near-native language skills, relevant degrees, TESL certificates, and teaching experience, have a tremendous uphill battle in securing an EFL position in Japan. This is grossly unfair but that's the way things are.
If you just want to come to Japan to hang out a while, you might be able to find enough privates teaching conversational German and English on a WHV to just barely make ends meet.
If you have any longer term goals in teaching EFL abroad, I would strongly recommend you complete a university degree at an English speaking university. After that, given your dual nationality, I'd advise you to apply for jobs as "an American" rather than as a German.
You might also have better luck starting out in Korea or China. |
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PAULH
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Posts: 4672
Location: Western Japan
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| Posted: Tue Oct 25, 2005 7:57 am Post subject: Re: Teach as German/American with out degree? |
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| gZo wrote: |
Honestly, not really sure if I will. I defiantly will apply for the WHV with my German Passport in order to get a valid Visa to be able to work right away with out any hassle and in fact, I would not get one with my American Passport I guess.
cheers! |
Working Holiday is a valid visa, but as far as a sponsored work via goes you will be SOL. To get a teaching visa you need a degree, even for non-native speakers teaching their own languages.
You will not be able to get a work visa with no degree, period, unless you have three years relevant teaching experience, and no one will hire you full time to teach English except some of the less reputable companies who pay lower wages to non-native speakers
| gZo wrote: |
I would prefer to do some conversational tudoring in German, because my German skills are way, way better then in English. However,
Do you think I would have at least small chances to get a teaching job in one of those two languages with out further education.
cheers! |
On a WHV and no degree, you would not even get a job at NOVA the biggest language school in the country, as they require one year of tertiary education for those working on WHV.
There are Germans etc working here, but they have valid visas, spouse visas and can work legally.
You may get a job teaching German, but the demand simply isnt their to fill your schedule with only german classes. Even getting enough privates to learn English so you can teach them full time would take 6 months of searching. |
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canuck
Joined: 11 May 2003
Posts: 1921
Location: Japan
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| Posted: Tue Oct 25, 2005 10:25 am Post subject: |
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| I think you'd be making a mistake to come. It would be too hard for you to get a decent paying job and put food on the table. |
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gZo
Joined: 14 Oct 2005
Posts: 15
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| Posted: Tue Oct 25, 2005 2:46 pm Post subject: |
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Sounds like it's hopeless.
I heard it's not impossible,
I have been told that some employer prefer people which have a valid visa even if it's just a WHV. And they might decide on the ability of the employee and prefer "maybe" even a person with a non degree which reside in Japan already. (the face to face bonus) Well, I'm just holding on to what I read and heard already, but I guess you all know a little more then I do.
Would it be possible to afford living with a other Job? I still want to come and try no matter what. I heard that some people even got hired with one of those live expirience degree's (degree mills) which I doubt, I might not be graduated but not a complete fool. And that sounds to shady to me anyway. I mean I could provide NOVA a regular heartbeat and the ability to speak English  , but it seems it even takes more there.
Thanks for the information @ all! |
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PAULH
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Posts: 4672
Location: Western Japan
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| Posted: Tue Oct 25, 2005 3:18 pm Post subject: |
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| gZo wrote: |
And that sounds to shady to me anyway. I mean I could provide NOVA a regular heartbeat and the ability to speak English , but it seems it even takes more there.
Thanks for the information @ all! |
Gzo
NOVA turns down 50% of people who apply for a job with them, this includes people with degrees, Masters and CELTA. The idea that NOVA hires anyone with a pulse is an urban myth.
You have to have what they are looking for and if you dont have one year at university they wont even give you an interview. A degree is essentially the minimum requirement for hiring here. and with no degree you dont get across the start line at a majority of schools.
Finish the degree and you will save yourself a lot of heart break and rejection. |
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PAULH
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Posts: 4672
Location: Western Japan
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| Posted: Tue Oct 25, 2005 3:20 pm Post subject: |
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[quote="PAULH"]
| gZo wrote: |
And that sounds to shady to me anyway. I mean I could provide NOVA a regular heartbeat and the ability to speak English , but it seems it even takes more there.
Thanks for the information @ all! |
Gzo
NOVA in the past turned down 50% of people who apply for a job with them, this includes people with degrees, Masters and CELTA. The idea that NOVA hires anyone with a pulse is an urban myth.
I have recently heard though they are having trouble finding people though because of their lousy reputation and the extremely high turnover they have here. they have to find 4000 new teachers every 2 years.
You have to have what they are looking for and if you dont have one year at university they wont even give you an interview. A degree is essentially the minimum requirement for hiring here. and with no degree you dont get across the start line at a majority of schools.
Finish the degree and you will save yourself a lot of heart break and rejection |
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abufletcher
Joined: 14 Sep 2005
Posts: 779
Location: Shikoku Japan (for now)
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| Posted: Tue Oct 25, 2005 3:42 pm Post subject: |
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I agree with Paul, you have little hope of finding any regular job in Japan without a university degree. When you think about it why SHOULD a modern developed country hire a foreigner without a formal education to do anything other than hard manual labor? That's just not the way things work in the world.
To be perfectly frank (und bitte verzeihen Sie mir wenn's etwas hart klingt) the only thing you have going for you in terms of marketability as a language teacher is an American passport and a "white face" (I presume) and that alone won't get you anywhere in Japan. There are still some junk jobs in China were a white face will get you a low-paying English teaching job -- no questions asked. No one will really even care if you speak with an accent. But even that's changing fast.
Language skills alone won't get a person very far in the world. If you don't believe me take a trip to Copenhagen. There you'll find beggers on the streets who speak 4 or more languages extremely well but they're still on the street begging for change. Of course they're also on drugs but...
Why specifically do you want to come to Japan? It's an expensive place to just hang out. If you'd just like to experience a bit of Asia, I'd recommend a trip to Vietnam. In fact you could probably hang out in Vietnam for a month with what it would cost to spend a single week in Japan. |
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gZo
Joined: 14 Oct 2005
Posts: 15
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| Posted: Sun Oct 30, 2005 6:33 pm Post subject: |
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Language skills alone won't get a person very far in the world. If you don't believe me take a trip to Copenhagen. There you'll find beggers on the streets who speak 4 or more languages extremely well but they're still on the street begging for change. Of course they're also on drugs but...
Why specifically do you want to come to Japan? It's an expensive place to just hang out. If you'd just like to experience a bit of Asia, I'd recommend a trip to Vietnam. In fact you could probably hang out in Vietnam for a month with what it would cost to spend a single week in Japan.[/quote]
Thank for the advice.
Hi all,
Well, just because I don't have a Degree it does not mean I have no education at all.
I will finish the Certificate in advanced English, to have some sort of official English Certification. I think it's something like ESOL, or it even is.
And by the way, I know people which are Asian-Americans and they are teaching there as well. So the thing with "white face" might be true in some cases, but not necessary every where. And what kind of skills more then a language do graduated persons have with a degree in any field which is not a degree in English-German or tudoring? What makes me a better language teacher if I have a BS. in engineering then one which has one in IT? Just curious. I heard they require a degree in order to get a visa sponsorship with out problems and of course they want a person with further education.
If I get a WHV for 1 year, I'm definitely not planing to just hang out all the time, specially not in Japan. And Vietnam ? Sure for a visit, but not to stay there for a year.
Japan mainly, because my girlfriend is there. So the answer is love.
And I wanted to leave Germany anyway.
I guess if it's not teaching, then it will be a other job.
I'll definitely give it a try, I will have a WV and place to stay with out a job.
I think that are actually the best conditions for the start.
I still can leave if it's going to be inpossible to get a job.
There has been always a way for me, and I'll find one there too.
But thanks for bringing my hopes up. 
I've been told it's possible by someone which has no degree.
I guess it takes a little more luck then. |
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abufletcher
Joined: 14 Sep 2005
Posts: 779
Location: Shikoku Japan (for now)
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| Posted: Sun Oct 30, 2005 10:01 pm Post subject: |
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| gZo wrote: |
| Well, just because I don't have a Degree it does not mean I have no education at all. I will finish the Certificate in advanced English, to have some sort of official English Certification. I think it's something like ESOL, or it even is. |
I'm not sure this will mean very much without a university degree as well. But as you say it's better than nothing.
| Quote: |
And by the way, I know people which are Asian-Americans and they are teaching there as well. So the thing with "white face" might be true in some cases, but not necessary every where. |
Yes, there are some "non-White-faced" EFL teachers but to be honest they face some very serious discrimination in the hiring process and I'd guess that the Asian Americans you mention do have a university degree.
| Quote: |
| And what kind of skills more then a language do graduated persons have with a degree in any field which is not a degree in English-German or tudoring? What makes me a better language teacher if I have a BS. in engineering then one which has one in IT? Just curious. |
Here are a couple of my favorite quotes on the value of education, one in English and one in German:
1) "Education is what's left over after you forget everything you learn."
2) "Mist ist fuer die Blumen, was die Schule ist fuer Kinder."
Seriously, this is a fair question and I'l try to answer it. First I think having a degree in any field shows people that you value education for its own sake -- and education is highly respected in most Asian cultures. I don't think it is possible to be a good teacher if you don't respect the educational process. I think that getting a degree also shows that you are willing to "play by the rules" which is an important qualification for any job. I personally feel a college degree also shows that a person has a certain sort of determination. Something like 50-60% of the high school students in the US go on to do at least one year at a college. So it's pretty fair to say that for an American to stop his or her education after high school puts them in the bottom 50% of American society in terms of employability.
I'm not sure what the statistics are for Germany. I believe that because of the nature of the school system (i.e. the distinction between "gymnasium" and "technischehochshule") a smaller segment of the population may attend university. For many jobs the appreticeship system is more common in Germany. Actually, I'd say that an "abitur" from a German gymnasium is a higher qualification than an American high school diploma. Good luck trying to explain that to an employer though.
| Quote: |
| I heard they require a degree in order to get a visa sponsorship with out problems and of course they want a person with further education. |
It seems reasonable that a government would place some restrictions on the which foreigners come to a country to work in schools.
| Quote: |
| If I get a WHV for 1 year, I'm definitely not planing to just hang out all the time, specially not in Japan. And Vietnam ? Sure for a visit, but not to stay there for a year. |
If I could earn the same money I do here in Japan, I'd swap a job in Vietnam for one in Japan any day. It's a facinating country which extremely friendly people. There is a fascination which Japan and Japanese culture that is entirely out of proportion with its actual charms. I say this as someone who has worked in 6 countries and traveling in over 35 others.
| Quote: |
| Japan mainly, because my girlfriend is there. So the answer is love. |
Aaaah. So we're finally getting to the heart of the matter so to speak! : )
| Quote: |
| And I wanted to leave Germany anyway. |
Permenantly? Permenantly escaping the country of one's birth is no easy task. Of course with your American passport you have more options than most. Is it German society or German weather that you're trying to avoid? When I was a student at Georg-August University in Goettingen, my Spanish professor had a favorite saying: "Jedes Land bekommt das Wetter dass es verdient." : )
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| But thanks for bringing my hopes up. |
"Forwarned is forearmed."
Viel Glueck und veil Spass. |
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Glenski
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
Posts: 12844
Location: Hokkaido, JAPAN
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| Posted: Sun Oct 30, 2005 11:48 pm Post subject: |
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| I have been told that some employer prefer people which have a valid visa even if it's just a WHV. And they might decide on the ability of the employee and prefer "maybe" even a person with a non degree which reside in Japan already. |
All true, but with no degree, you are limited to very few options.
1. The WHV, which limits your stay to a year maximum.
2. A spouse visa, if you decide to marry your Japanese girlfriend.
3. In the outside chance that you can get 3 years of teaching experiences somewhere, you can bypass the work visa requirement for a bachelor's degree.
In all of the above situations, you still have to deal with employers who value the degree more than what they can judge about your teaching ability from a cover letter and interview.
| Quote: |
| Would it be possible to afford living with a other Job? |
What other jobs are you qualified for? For non-teaching jobs, high fluency in Japanese is a common requirement (unless you can find a foreign company that is willing to send a newly hired person to Japan). In the long run, the visa hurdle is your biggest barrier.
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jjust because I don't have a Degree it does not mean I have no education at all.
I will finish the Certificate in advanced English, to have some sort of official English Certification. I think it's something like ESOL, or it even is.
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That's all well and good, and it may serve you well as a teacher with no background or other training in teaching, but you still have to get past the immigration requirements for a visa, like it or not.
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| by the way, I know people which are Asian-Americans and they are teaching there as well. |
But what are their visa situations and educational backgrounds? Ask them.
| Quote: |
| And what kind of skills more then a language do graduated persons have with a degree in any field which is not a degree in English-German or tudoring? What makes me a better language teacher if I have a BS. in engineering then one which has one in IT? Just curious. |
It's a fair question, and it is commonly asked by people in your situation. The bottom line is that a degree itself does not guarantee that a person is a better teacher, nor does a degree specifically in teaching do that. However, immigration sets the rules, and you have to play by them. After that, you have to deal with what employers want, and that might amount to the same thing. |
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gZo
Joined: 14 Oct 2005
Posts: 15
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| Posted: Fri Nov 04, 2005 2:02 am Post subject: |
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First, thanks to everyone for the information.
Very true, the Asian-Americans have a Degree.
The option marry my girlfriend would'nt work out, because she is not Japanese either. Japan is, lets say, the first stop of my travels.
My girlfriend is American and she has a degree. Of course she is teaching there, like almost every English speaking Foreigner in Japan.
| Quote: |
Permenantly? Permenantly escaping the country of one's birth is no easy task. Of course with your American passport you have more options than most. Is it German society or German weather that you're trying to avoid? When I was a student at Georg-August University in Goettingen, my Spanish professor had a favorite saying: "Jedes Land bekommt das Wetter dass es verdient." : )
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To be honest, actually it's the society, weather and the fact that the future possibilities here are very rare. Germany is perfect for people which don't want to work, or huge Companies. The perfect social system takes care about the black sheeps and those who maybe really need wellfare. But the normal worker is paying s*** loads on taxes and the coast of living in general is very high. With the salary I'm making at the moment, it's doable to live ok as a single person. But I'm everything else then happy here. Sick and tired of it to be exactly.
I know it won't be easy in a foreign country, but I'm more then ready for a change. I can allways come back even that I hope now, it's just going to be for a vacation.(maybe not even that) My plan is to get to my girlfriend as soon as possible and explore and work for a while in Japan. And if it's working out with my gf, I guess Germany is going to be last choice, since she dislikes it more then I do.
I'm just trying to save as much money as I can.
And as long as I get some kind of Job in Japan that I don't have to live of my savings, I'm happy.
I know in Thailand I would be able to teach English even with my bad Grammar and no Degree. It's enough there to have a Highschool Diploma and American Passport. A friend of mine is currently there and doing it.
Your explanation about education is correct and makes sense,
I'm not that ignorant to not accept the fact that a graduated person
which went to University is more suiting to such a position and other Jobs. Specially in Schools. It's just every where like that in the world now that it's more important to have it proofed written on paper that you have gained certain education even if you are a complete moron. What I mean is, as long as you have a Degree it does'nt matter at all how smart you are as long as you look smart on paper.
Please don't get the idea now, that I think graduated people are stupid and I'm smarter.
I understand the point you making there and think you are right when you say try to tell that your employer.
If it's coming worse to worse and I won't get a Job at all with out a Degree, I still got the opportunity to order one of those 100% legal Degree's online for 500 bugs.  lol. I guess they are just waiting for foolish customers like me.
I guess education is the keyword like you sad even if you forget what you have learned.
My problem now is, I don't have the time and money to study and direction either. But I'll try to make the best out of it. |
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