Job Discussion Forums

[matttheboy]

I'm sat at home watching a bunch of fcuking idiots destroy Mar del Plata. It's pretty much the same 20-30 people caught on camera going from shop front to shop front. Banks, mobile phones companies and local businesses run by local people all appear to be fair game. These people are simply ransacking and looting for the hell of it. They have no political agenda, they are simply muppets. I'm actually, genuinely willing the (incredibly restrained) police to wade in and start clubbing and shooting these fckers. And then take them off to jail for another severe beating. Sadly i don't think they will.

All these people do is steal the media exposure that is desperately needed to highlight the real reasons for the 'Contra-Cumbre' and the march against Bush. 99% of people want to peacefully express their rights and protest against the injustices they see in the world- 1% decide to ruin it. The newspapers won't mention the poverty statistics, they'll talk almost exclusively about the damage caused by a bunch of fu ck-wits. The real, important issues simply get lost in the haze of tear gas fired over the barricades to disperse these wan-kers.

This part of the world has enough negative press. In fact, the only time Latin America makes the news in England is when something like this happens and it simply re-inforces the stereotype we have-Latin America is a dangerous place and the people are savages. It scares off foreign investment and tourism and who really loses out? The average latino-americano trying to earn a living to feed himself and his family.

These thugs have absolutely nothing to do with anti-capitalism and are not protesting about Bush; they are simply destroying their own people's lives and livings for the fun of it. What have a locally owned video shop or farmacy got to do with globalisation? Nothing. Will these locally owned businesses have insurance to cover the damage and loss? I'd guess that most don't. Normal, average, hard-working Argentines have just lost how they feed themselves.

Sorry for the rant, but these idiots really make my blood boil.

PS, they've just started throwing molotov coctails at the police and into shops. All of these shops have flats or houses above them. I'm guessing some of the police have families who won't appreciate having a burned and disfigured dad come home. Clever, eh?

[lozwich]

Good on you, Se�or TheBoy.

I was watching it on tv myself, and pondering if this would increase the panicked emails my father has been sending me since I arrived in Bogota. Emails that are 20 times more frantic than the phone calls and emails I got after narrowly missing being involved in the recent London bombings.

On one of the broadcasts it was saying that the press obviously knew about it because they were all there with their gas masks on...

But are they muppets, or puppets?

[RyanS]

I cheer on my comrades in Argentina who are resisting neoliberalism and Imperialism. The police are armed agents of the state and deserve what they get.

And I've never heard the stereotype of Latin Americans being savages.

[grahamb]

Violence is distasteful, but decades of poverty and oppression - Argentina's had its share of military dictatorships - lead to desperation and discontent.
Europe is not immune to riots - look what's happening in France at the moment. Cast your mind back to the early 80s in the UK - Brixton, Southall and Toxteth spring to mind. Remember the violence that accompanied the miners' strike?
Push someone against a wall and they either submit or come out fighting.

[lozwich]

I agree with you Graham, but I will never understand why people need to ruin the lives of others in retaliation against 'the man'..

peace.

[grahamb]

It's simple, Lozwich: they can't get at Bush, whereas shops and vehicles are easily accessible.

[YanquiQuilme�o]

Matt, what happened in Mar del Plata makes me very sad and angry, too.

[RyanS]

Thanks for twisting my words.

I don't know which shops you specifically are refering to, I didn't say all the damage I agree with. Some shops I would agree with getting destroyed and looted, ones that are there for the rich elites only, many of the multinational ones. Not everyone who attends a protest has a clear analysis of the situation nor is everyone there to protest the Summit of the Americas some are to loot.

[Aramas]

Ah, but who's wtaching the fcuking idiots wtaching the fcuking idiots?

[vivaBarca]

[YanquiQuilme�o]

Couldn't have said it better myself, VivaBarca.

[Justin Trullinger]

"Those who make peaceful change impossible make violent change inevitable."

"I cannot address the violence of the oppressed without first speaking clearly to the far greater purveyor of violence, my own government."

Martin Luther King Jr.



I'm not exactly standing up for violence here. But I'm not accepting the party line that any destruction of property is inherently wrong. I guess to me it's a fair bit more complicated than that.

In a riot I saw in London a few years ago, a McDonalds got wrecked. And you know what? The owner of that McDonalds was probably a decent guy, not a bad neighbour, fun to have a drink with, and nice to his wife, kids and dog. I don't know who the owner really was, but if you think about it, most people are pretty decent, if you get them up close and personal on their home turf. He (or she) and his or her family probably lost a substantial source of income when the fast food parlour got trashed, and it probably affected their lifestyle in a negative way. And, softy that I am, I wouldn't wish that on him, her, them, or anybody.

But I know what McDonalds is like, too. Crap food, but that's the least of it. Who gets rich in the food chain of McDonalds? Owners. Do the guys who make your burger get ahead, or just barely get by? What about the managers? McDonalds is part of the system that says only OWNERSHIP has serious rewards. Investments of time, labour, innovation, or expertise, only get big rewards when coupled with investment of MONEY. No money to invest, and you're lucky to get better than minimum wage. But if you put the money down, you don't really have to do anything else. And while a lot of business owners may be hardworking, concientious employers, at least as many just turn up for the profits, and know that letting employees get any further ahead than absolutely necessary is hard on their bottom line.

And what happens to existing businesses when McDonalds comes to compete? McDOnalds has one of the worlds biggest advertising budgets, and they play for keeps. THe competition seldom survives. And so, to many, old Micky D's becomes yet another symbol of yankee imperialism.

McDonalds is one example. There are many, many, many more.

This is the class system that is getting a lot of people down. Especially in Latin America.

So, Matt. I didn't see the news you saw. And I have no doubt that some of the people you saw were fcukwits. Anytime you point a camera at 100 people, you'll get a fair few.

I don't know what they destroyed, or why. If I did know, I would probably disaprove. I'm a squeamish kindof firstworlder, and I don't like wanton destruction either.

But if I'm gonna understand the world out there, I've gotta face the facts. This whole continent has specialized in losing for a long time, and seeing that others (Europe, the US) are winning by taking from the people here has got to be very frustrating. And the first world's exportation of Latin America's wealth is usually done with the collusion of the propertied ruling class here. The same ruling class that owns (or sometimes owns, or is perceived to own) the stores that you saw get destroyed.

Sometimes people, committing acts I don't approve of, are reacting to the pressures of impossible seeming situations that I haven't ever had to live in. And quite probably, they are often wrong, and fcukwits. But maybe not always. Maybe change sometimes requires upheaval of a most dramatic kind, even if I personally may find it distasteful.

Regards,
Justin

[RyanS]

Look the thing is the Media only looks at the big actions. Not just any big actions but one which will further their editor or broadcaster's goals. So theres a big bias in the way things are presented. I think the protest was largely successful. I never said all actions against stores were justified. I said some cases were.

And I also recongize the class character of the state, its there to protect private property and by private property I don't mean your car, your home, your tv or watch, I mean private ownership of the ecomony. ANd for sure somethings things are taken over by the state and given to the people but this is the cause of one thing Give the people an inche so they don't take a yard. And yes there are varying political parties which represent the people to varying degrees, but they all work in the framework of the state and work to preserve its function. This is the capitalist state.

And don't call me an armchair revolutionary, you don't know me so don't resort to personal attacks.

[Justin Trullinger]

[MixtecaMike]