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ls650
Joined: 10 May 2003
Posts: 3484
Location: British Columbia
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 Posted: Wed Nov 16, 2005 2:12 pm Post subject: |
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| From what I've seen, the only area that gets really stinky about the "name brand" is Europe. Most other places don't care so much about the label as long as you've put in four weeks. |
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Jizzo T. Clown
Joined: 28 Apr 2005
Posts: 668
Location: performing in a classroom near you!
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| Posted: Wed Nov 16, 2005 2:24 pm Post subject: |
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My question is:
If you already have EFL experience, is a TEFL course going to help you land a better job?
In my case, I've taught for nearly three years, in three countries. Would it be possible that a school in say, Thailand, would accept someone with no experience and only a 4-week certificate over me?
I agree with joshua 2004 in that I wouldn't take a course until some sort of standardization has taken place. |
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Gregor
Joined: 06 Jan 2005
Posts: 842
Location: Jakarta, Indonesia
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| Posted: Wed Nov 16, 2005 2:45 pm Post subject: |
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Jizzo said:
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| If you already have EFL experience, is a TEFL course going to help you land a better job? |
Maybe not. I dunno. But that wasn't the question. Look at the OP.
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But especially at the lower levels, when they may not have any idea what they're getting into (i.e. the adverts for you school say it's EASY and FUN!!!! But it ain't). YOU have to make it as accessible to them as you possibly can. And you have to make the class an enjoyable experience for them. HELP them see what the individual student can do to help his or her own process along.
Again, you need to motivate them, because otherwise, the vast majority of them are going to say, "Yeah, she's a great teacher. It's ME. I just can't learn languages. Forget it; I'll just keep my post in China."
Which, of course, indicates that the teacher is NOT great; in point of fact, the teacher is crap. Helping to motivate the students in this way may well be the single most important thing I learned on my course.
And the thing is, I know tons of teachers with years of experience who think they're great. People tell them how great they are. But they can't do this basic, most fundamental part of the TEFL job.
I'm not saying that a trained ESL teacher will prevent this from ever happening. Sometimes, the student really doesn't have the time to put into it what he/she needs to. That happens. But when it's a case of a student thinking that he or she "can't learn a language," that very much is the fault of the teacher - I can teach the most intentionally dense person on the globe how to speak English. I have even had pretty good results with mentally handicapped students. It has not a whit to do with intelligence or talent (though talented people can do it more quickly and easily, I'll admit that).
How do I know this? Well, experience, but I knew it before THAT. How?
Get the certificate. |
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Gregor
Joined: 06 Jan 2005
Posts: 842
Location: Jakarta, Indonesia
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| Posted: Wed Nov 16, 2005 3:03 pm Post subject: |
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Oh, yeah. One thing I forgot to mention above:
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| In my case, I've taught for nearly three years, in three countries. Would it be possible that a school in say, Thailand, would accept someone with no experience and only a 4-week certificate over me? |
Yes. It would be possible. I'm not in Thailand, but I DO hire teachers, and I have had enough bad experience with "experienced" teachers who have had NEGATIVE experience that I would hire an inexperienced teacher over a non-certified one.
A certified teacher has the background that I spoke of earlier. A teacher with two, three, four years' experience teaching without the benefit of a teaching certificate often has a lot of bad habits that I no longer have the patience to deal with. A TEFL-certified teacher is MUCH easier to train. A teacher with a TEFL certificate and a couple years' experience doesn't need any training at ALL.
That's coming from as much experience as a DoS as you, Jizzo, have as a teacher.
My guess is that anyone with the kind of experience that I have had as a DoS would make the same call. |
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ls650
Joined: 10 May 2003
Posts: 3484
Location: British Columbia
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| Posted: Wed Nov 16, 2005 3:34 pm Post subject: |
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| Jizzo T. Clown wrote: |
In my case, I've taught for nearly three years, in three countries. Would it be possible that a school in say, Thailand, would accept someone with no experience and only a 4-week certificate over me?
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In some situations, yes.
For example, here the local immigration office will not issue a work visa to teach English unless the applicant has some sort of apostillized teaching certificate. Now, they don't seem to be too fussy about what this is; I suspect you use just an online 'quickie' TEFL certificate, and Immigration wouldn't suspect any difference between that and a full-blown teaching qualification - but they do require some kind of certificate. |
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Cdaniels
Joined: 21 Mar 2005
Posts: 663
Location: Dunwich, Massachusetts
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| Posted: Wed Nov 16, 2005 3:39 pm Post subject: Standards and Costs |
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| I agree with joshua2004 in that I wouldn't take a course until some sort of standardization has taken place. |
On the other hand, CELTA is becoming a defacto standard, and Trinity is the only major competition(for now). To use an example of a standardization process in front of you, "Windows" became the standard operating system without the blessings or review of any independent organization. In most international businesses, the leader(s) in the field set standards, not outside regulators.
As far as the cost of the programs:
The cost of certification is actually cheap compared to the cost of courses in private US universities and colleges. (and which are also spread out over the length of a semester) Right now competing TEFL programs (both good and bad schools) are keeping costs down. Also, something that Gregor didn't mention, that motivates both adult English students and TEFL students, is the amount of money students have to spend on the course! Money is the most reliable motivator. I can't count on my own idealism and dedication without consideration for money, much less others'. So, I'm gritting my teeth and taking a certification course. I'll laugh, I'll cry I'll kiss my money goodbye!  As far as teacher trainers, does not a DELTA serve a similar purpose? Experience probably counts for more with teacher trainers, but otherwise I would guess it parallels the TEFL teacher's career. |
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Jizzo T. Clown
Joined: 28 Apr 2005
Posts: 668
Location: performing in a classroom near you!
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| Posted: Wed Nov 16, 2005 5:15 pm Post subject: |
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| A teacher with two, three, four years' experience teaching without the benefit of a teaching certificate often has a lot of bad habits that I no longer have the patience to deal with. |
Like what?
| Gregor wrote: |
A TEFL-certified teacher is MUCH easier to train. A teacher with a TEFL certificate and a couple years' experience doesn't need any training at ALL. |
You guys don't have professional development workshops? What do you mean by training? I would assume that when you hire a teacher they wouldn't need much "training" per se, unless it's more spcified like Business English or TOEFL, etc.
| Gregor wrote: |
That's coming from as much experience as a DoS as you, Jizzo, have as a teacher.
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So you haven't been in a classroom for some time, correct? Don't tell me you're a desk jockey.
I think it's fair to say that experience is the best teacher. I just can't get my head around hiring someone just because they shelled out some money on a short course. That's no indication of whether or not they're going to be a good fit for your school. They may be the type that runs away in the night, whereas someone who has completed a few contracts is more likely to fulfill their contract at your school. Maybe a recent TEFL grad can tell you all about grammar and such, but can they tell you about Chinese students' common errors? Or adjusting to life in a new country? Or the bureaucracy in many language schools that impedes communication between sales staff and teaching staff?
While I don't think that experience should be the sole determinant, it should definitely be weighed (in addition to interviews and gut reactions) against someone recently qualified who has yet to go abroad. To generalize by saying that non-TEFL-certified teachers are better than teachers with teaching experience is just short-sighted and ignorant. Case-by-case. |
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Justin Trullinger
Joined: 28 Jan 2005
Posts: 3110
Location: Seoul, South Korea and Myanmar for a bit
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| Posted: Wed Nov 16, 2005 7:11 pm Post subject: |
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I wouldn't say that DOS means desk jockey. I've been one for a year, and still usually teach 10 to 20 contact hours a week. (Whew, am I tired, but that's a separate issue.) And because, as director, I am the one who takes classes that nobody else will, can, or should, the variety in what I teach is astounding. 4 year old groups, specialized English for importation law, English for Agronomics, and a one to one with a dirty old man who only wants to learn vocabulary that pertains to BEEP. That's my week so far. And it's only Wednesday.
Even if I weren't teaching, I routinely observe other teachers, which is another way that your classroom knowledge is kept sharp.
And at least a couple of times a day, teachers come to me to talk about their classes, usually about problems in the classroom, or specific language points that they want additional resources and help with. If I was a full time teacher, I would only consider, and learn from, the situations that come up in MY classes. But as DOS, I wind up thinking about, and learning from, EVERYBODY's.
| Quote: |
| I think it's fair to say that experience is the best teacher. |
I think it's awfully simplistic to say that. Maybe it depends on who's having the experience. And how well they are able to learn reflectively from that experience.
Sometimes 20 years experience is just one year's experience, repeated 20 times.
In my experience, some untrained teachers learn a lot and get pretty good. But many just spend the first year developing survival tactics. (How to be popular in the classroom.) And then spend the rest of their teaching careers refining those tactics. They often don't have the knowledge to evaluate whether their tactics are good for learning, or just for keeping a job.
I realize there are exceptions. Some untrained, experienced teachers may be great. But my experience isn't that they are in the majority.
Regards,
Justin |
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Jizzo T. Clown
Joined: 28 Apr 2005
Posts: 668
Location: performing in a classroom near you!
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| Posted: Wed Nov 16, 2005 9:48 pm Post subject: |
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| Justin Trullinger wrote: |
Even if I weren't teaching, I routinely observe other teachers, which is another way that your classroom knowledge is kept sharp.
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This is a good point. I was fortunate enough at the past couple of schools I worked for to be able to observe other teachers once or twice a month. This was part of our ongoing professional development and we all benefitted greatly from it. I think more DoS's should give their teachers opportunities to observe.
| Justin Trullinger wrote: |
And at least a couple of times a day, teachers come to me to talk about their classes, usually about problems in the classroom, or specific language points that they want additional resources and help with. If I was a full time teacher, I would only consider, and learn from, the situations that come up in MY classes. But as DOS, I wind up thinking about, and learning from, EVERYBODY's. |
As far as this is concerned, most teachers do talk to each other about stuff that comes up in their classrooms, so teachers aren't always considering problems specific to them. It's my belief that vital issues should be addressed by the Dos at meetings, to keep everyone in the loop and to provide for a larger pool of knowledge and experience.
Another point I failed to mention is that if each school provides its teachers with some type of training, then teachers benefit from that training with each new job. The cumulative effect of this training could well surpass that of any TEFL course. However, I'm sure there are those who would disagree... |
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ls650
Joined: 10 May 2003
Posts: 3484
Location: British Columbia
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| Posted: Wed Nov 16, 2005 10:17 pm Post subject: |
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| I had to act as a DOS for several months in Indo when the director was fired (rightly so). It's a tough job; I found it wasn't the administration, the students, or the bureaucracy that made it difficult - it was all the dang prima donna furriners! Man, having to act in the best interests of the school was a real eye-opener; some of my fellow ex-pats were a bunch of damn whiners! |
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Gregor
Joined: 06 Jan 2005
Posts: 842
Location: Jakarta, Indonesia
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| Posted: Thu Nov 17, 2005 3:23 pm Post subject: |
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Jizzo,
All your surmising and guessing is exactly my point. This is all stuff you would know about if you were trained. An organized training course could easily take the place of YEARS of trial and error - when you have no training and take a job, you may be trained in that one job, but how is it likely to differ from other TESL jobs? You would have no idea. A certificate course gives you an overview.
And what bad habits from untrained teachers was I refering to? I thought I'd said, but it bears mentioning over and over again - the habit of thinking you're good just because other people say you are. Or the habit of believing students when they tell you that the understand (which is more like a teacher saying, "Do you understand?" and the students saying "Yes."). Things like that.
I would NEVER, in a million years, "test" a student's understanding with that question, and I have no reason to expect an untrained teacher to know why not. And it IS a habit that is very difficult to break.
Like that. There are others. If you want a detailed list, we'd need a new thread.
And no, I'm no desk jockey. I'd be offended by that, except that you don't really seem to know what this industry is about. I wouldn't have taken the DoS job if it took me out of the classroom. As Justin said, I have more varied experience, on an on-going, daily basis than any of my teachers have.
And that doesn't even COUNT having to cover for the runners or the hang-overs who call in sick at a moment's notice, and then I have to take their class with NO lesson plan and NO idea what had gone on before and NO idea what their HOMEWORK even was in some cases, and THEN I have to explain to the students and parents why I can't be the regular teacher, which they want me to be, on the strength of one, unexpected, 100% unplanned so-called "lesson."
And you know what else? Even though I like my job, over-all, I wouldn't take another DoS job after this, and Is650 called it:
| Quote: |
| all the dang prima donna furriners! |
I. too, have had untrained teachers work out OK, but I have still had to hold their hand while at the same time hold my own temper when I explain, as patiently as possible, that the students have every right to question the teachers' qualifications, or some such obvious, reasonable request (such as parents observing PART of a replacement teacher's lesson). Why my temper? Because said teacher is being a prima donna, getting all self-righteous about this or that perceived injustice.
A good, trained, and WELL-experienced (as in positive, not negative or redundant experience) teacher would have no serious complaint with any of that. |
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Justin Trullinger
Joined: 28 Jan 2005
Posts: 3110
Location: Seoul, South Korea and Myanmar for a bit
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| Posted: Thu Nov 17, 2005 7:22 pm Post subject: |
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| Another point I failed to mention is that if each school provides its teachers with some type of training, then teachers benefit from that training with each new job. |
True. And that's one reason I suppose most of us really prefer to hire trained teachers with experience. Best of both worlds.
But unless I know your old school, and can call their DOS for a friendly chat, I don't have any idea who's been training you. Or what they've been telling you. Or if they have a clue. A reputable course will have standards for materials, information covered, and qualifications of trainers. I can find out those things about any reputable course. If it's a well known course, I probably already know.
But I don't know what training at your old school was like.
| Quote: |
Maybe a recent TEFL grad can tell you all about grammar and such, but can they tell you about Chinese students' common errors? Or adjusting to life in a new country? Or the bureaucracy in many language schools that impedes communication between sales staff and teaching staff?
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Again, agreed. (Although some of it depends on what the recent TEFL grad was up to before TEFL, which should also be considered.) But maybe your knowledge of bureaucracy in other language schools doesn't apply here anyway. (We're an NGO, no sales staff, very different structure.)
I agree that experience adjusting to life in a new country is IMPORTANT. This is one of the biggest problems in EFL- the horror of hiring someone who freaks out, flips out, and fucks off. Experience can help avoid this. But I haven't found the freak out rate to be noticeably higher amongst first time teachers, and I find that if the school provides support and assistance, it usually goes okay with newish young people who are SO EXCITED to be here. (You gotta love newbies!)
I've also had the opposite problem with experienced staff- we lost a teacher in my first year here because nothing was like Malaysia. He'd effectively integrated into the culture there, and assumed that after that, Ecuador would be a piece of cake. Upon finding out that he really had to go through the whole frustrating process again, he couldn't handle it.
It's a mistake to assume that adapting to one country is the same as another. Sure, there are transferable skills and experiences, but every time is new.
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| While I don't think that experience should be the sole determinant, it should definitely be weighed |
Certainly. But it's one of many factors. And remember, the choice that usually falls to me isn't between someone with no qualification but some experience, and someone with no experience but a qualification. My gut reaction to this situation would be to keep looking for more candidates.
What I usually get is varying levels of experience and varying qualifications to try and sort out. And yes, Jizzo, if you were in the stack, your experience would count in your favour. And your lack of a qualification would count against you. I think that's just how it is in most places. THere are a lot of other factors, and I don't really know how you'd stack up in the end.
But remember, when people say, "With X years of experience, I don't need a qualification," they're forgetting that somebody in the competition may have the same number of years, and a qualification. And that's the teacher I'm really looking for.
Regards,
Justin |
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Jizzo T. Clown
Joined: 28 Apr 2005
Posts: 668
Location: performing in a classroom near you!
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| Posted: Thu Nov 17, 2005 8:17 pm Post subject: |
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| Gregor wrote: |
I. too, have had untrained teachers work out OK, but I have still had to hold their hand while at the same time hold my own temper... |
And this is the reason why the relationship between teachers and Dos's is largely adversarial.
Justin, I absolutely agree that experience with no training isn't as desirable as experience+training, which is why I'm in an MA TESOL program right now.
I just think that if one candidate has experience but no training, and the other has training but no experience, Dos's shouldn't automatically assume that the candidate with training is the better choice. Sure, there are lots of things to consider when hiring a new teacher, and as I said, job offers vary case by case. I just wish more people would keep this in mind instead of (like Gregor) saying that there is a cut-and-dry way of making a decision as to who's the best fit for the school.
Gregor,
Don't get so upset! Nobody is threatening your job here. Too many Dos's think that it's their way or the highway, when they should in fact be acting to inspire and educate their teachers...not hold their hand and bite your tongue. (I won't address the other personal attacks because they're unfounded)
Organizational Behavior 101: To gain respect, you must show respect. |
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Cdaniels
Joined: 21 Mar 2005
Posts: 663
Location: Dunwich, Massachusetts
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| Posted: Thu Nov 17, 2005 9:48 pm Post subject: Wait a sec... |
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| Jizzo T. Clown wrote: |
| I just think that if one candidate has experience but no training, and the other has training but no experience, Dos's shouldn't automatically assume that the candidate with training is the better choice. |
But I beleive Gregor (or was it Justin?) already pointed out that its not an assumption but an example of a thoughtful desicion based on experience.
And what's this "gain respect by showing respect?" You've accused all DOS's of being "Desk Jockeys" and Gregor of saying "there is a cut-and-dry way of making a decision." He didn't even imply such a thing. I'm glad you're "inspiring" such lively responses with such an irreverent attitude, but let's not get delusional!  |
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DKatz
Joined: 30 Mar 2005
Posts: 30
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| Posted: Fri Nov 18, 2005 1:30 am Post subject: |
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Last edited by DKatz on Mon Jan 16, 2006 11:10 am; edited 1 time in total |
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