Job Discussion Forums

[redafiya]

This school is currently advertising on the daves esl jobs board, so I thought i'd give it a try.... I want to work in the middle east anyway, but wasn't convinced about Saudi....

Now, this is no disrespect or slander to either the school itself ( by all accounts a good reputable school ) or the guy who runs it...he was very courteous, professional and polite in his contact with me....but i just want to comment on maybe two aspects of the pre interview banter , intial email contact which leave me frankly,puzzled or bemused/amused...maybe long term saudis can explain the oddness?

In one of his emails to me he told me directly in no uncertain terms that my wife may well be treated harshly in Saudi ( his literal words )...ok, hardly news to anyone knowing the status of women in some parts of the middle east ,so no problem there -- truth is truth-- but it's hardly an inviting sales pitch to show prospective teachers the benefits of the job to married couples is it? hahahahaaa .... but at least its honest, so no real objection...( "Ok, my wife may be treated harshly by the locals? Hmmm..great, that's fair conditions, just let me arrange my flight tickets for the both of us...." ....You gotta laugh... )

Then , to cap it all, I was sent an enclosed document answering FAQ about Saudi, the school etc ( you know the kind of standard school produced docs ) ....ok fair enough...the document was honestly and accurately explaining the austere and conservative nature of Saudi society and how one should be prepared for that...ok, all good so far, this is being honest and telling it like it is...no prblem there then....

...But then at the end of the document,just under the section on restrictions in Saudi society/prayer times/explaining there are no theatres/cinemas etc.... taking up about a quarter of the whole document, there was a huge, humungous black and white picture of a drug ravaged Elvis Presley, black bags under eyes from drug fuelled nights, shaking hands with the criminal Nixon in the Whitehouse! ( maybe you know the picture -- its a famous picture taken when Elvis was utterly wracked by drugs, but went to the Whitehouse to offer his services to Nixon as...ummm...errrr.... an anti drugs baron ! Its famous....)

Now, no slight against the school -- they have been polite and honest in their dealings with me....but the whole email exchange,publicity pics of the school with weird elvis pics has just left me speechless.....

I can only conclude Saudi is a weird place to work....


( I can remember living in various austere Islamic states as I was growing up, and how odd it all was living in those places..but often we just switched off to it as a kind of survival mechanism... )

Good luck to whoever takes the job!

[scot47]

I have heard reports from many who worked in this school. Nothing positive.

[redafiya]

Thanks for the reply Scot -- I have to admit, the humungous picture of a drug addled Elvis on their promo lit -- just under the section decribing the austerity of life in Saudi, prayer times etc -- left me baffled/amused.

Then the email telling me my wife should expect harsh treatment and a lonely life in Saudi -- and then asking me when I was free for the formal school invite to interview -- left me more baffled. On the school website pictures, the school looks an unhappy austere place, and the teachers look haggard and desperate. I have taught for long enough ( and lived in strict islamic states too ) to recognise that look of loss and desperation and unhappiness in a TEFL teachers face -- i saw that look on the faces of the tefl teachers on their website.

Thanks Scot.If you, as a long termer in Saudi with reliable info about life at street level, has heard nothing optimistic about this school-- there must be a reason why. The pics on their website look lonely and barren. I think people who have taught for years can read between the lines and pick up clues.

[DesertStar]

[abufletcher]

I've lived and worked in Germany, Saudi, Kuwait, Oman, Mexico, and Japan and Saudi has had by far the largest percentage of "eccentric" expats. That having been said, I loved my Saudi experience down in the Asir but would have serious doubts about taking a job in Riyadh. Far too many expats which seems to have created an "us vs. them" mentality that I didn't really experience in the Asir. True is was still "us" and "them" but it didn't seem adversarial.

[veiledsentiments]

I'm wondering why this is in the General Forum and not the KSA Forum. I actually know a person who taught at King Faisal for a few years... but he had a very high tolerance for BS... and needed to sock away some money quickly.

He regaled me with horror stories about the place. It seemed that every year about 25% of the new teachers would bail out in the first couple of weeks... and another 25% at mid-year... and about 75+% by year end. Very few made it through a 2 year contract.

I wonder if it has changed...

VS

[Stephen Jones]

The main problem with King Faisal is the hours. The idea of the school is that the students are looked after from 6.30 - 18.00 and from 6.30-14-00 on Thursdays. The teachers have to be present those hours, even though they only teach around 18-20 hours.

When they started in 1994 they paid westterners 13,000 - 14,000 a month, plus a luxury furnished flat. They have cut down on salaries however, and now you are likely to be offered only eight or nine thousand, which goes nowhere to compensate for those hours.

And then there is the problem with teaching the kids of very rich Saudis. It was quite common for students not to attend class between Ramadan and Hajj because they stayed abroad on holiday. One parent had the college fax his kid's homework every night - which they did, to Beverly Hills!

[veiledsentiments]

When my friend was there, the students declared that silverware and table/chairs were a sinful modern idea. So, everyone had to sit on the floor and eat with their fingers in the student lunchroom.

VS

[redafiya]

Thanks for all the informed replies and input from people in the know -- Clearly this school is not a fly by night, amateur outfit, and clearly they are aspiring to be professional -- However, I think that is vital to uncover these kinds of schools which are obviously miserable places to work with weird , depressing, expolitative set ups and conditions established by their owners.

It is vital so that they can see people are "onto them" and that they can't decieve everyone -- I am very senstitive to this kind of situation, becuase I am an experienced teacher now of 15 years experience -- but in my younger years, I was one of those poor naive fools who stepped into a promising looking post abroad -- only to return home after having been lied to,exploited and treated appallingly by my bosses, having worked in an Orwellian paranoid atmosphere for a year.

Let these school's owners know we are onto them. Hopefully, it will help t prevent future employees from being abused and misused.


Thanks to veiledsentiments, scot ( both of whom regularly offer realistic, informed advice ) and the others for the accurate portrayal of what set ups like this are really all about. Abu Fletcher's and Steven Jones' posts too, are helpful. Thanks.

[tomboy666]

I am the Head of English at King Faisal School and I was the person Redifiya communicated with about positions at our school. When a teacher saw his posts here he urged me to write a rebuttal as he knew the school as described was not the school as it is.

I am not interested in rebuttals. No-one really knows a place or an institution until they have been there, and whilst a forum like this is vital to learn what questions to ask potential employers, I believe you rarely find definitive answers here. Of course knowing what questions to ask is vital and in this vein we should thank Dave Sperling and his people for a job well done.

Now, to Redifya's posting...it is all true. Factually, I find no fault in anything he writes in terms of our communication. I did say his wife would be treated harshly, not simply because she is a woman but because of her race; this is due to the country of course and not the school. The school treats spouses with great dignity. As he mentions, I was frank and honest. Did I ask him if he was still interested? Of course I did, I would be foolish and unfair to delete any applicants with an eastern wife out of hand.

As for the literature containing a picture of Elvis and Nixon...that's probably true too. I say probably because we do have that picture in our database as part of a history module and somehow it may have been added to photos sent to Redifiya in error.

Now we get to the parts I don't agree with. The facts were as presented, but the inference drawn from the facts were bizarre. I don't mean to insult or in anyway denigrate Redifiya, but his posting did seem to rant somewhat on the importance of this picture. If one of the pictures sent to Redifiya was egregious, that should have prompted an e-mail back to my office in query and then we would have apologized for the error. I really don't think it deserved the attack which it received.

As for our teachers being morose and working in an austere, weird, exploitative and Orwellian atmosphere...oh please Redifiya...I think what we have here is transference, assumption and (sorry to say it) a certain xenophobia. There are lots of western teachers here, some of whom have been here for five or six years. I can understand if westerners have a problem with Saudi Arabia, but please don't blacken the name of the King Faisal School when you know nothing about it. There has been bad treatment meted out to a small number of teachers in the past, but certainly not in the years I have been here and improving conditions for teachers in cultures which may not understand them is part of all our jobs as international educators.

We have all known disgruntled teachers in countries in which we have worked, and we all know our profession attracts more than its fair share of nuts, but we should act more responsibly when we talk on topics we know nothing about. The King Faisal School is not the best institution on Earth, but it treats its western teachers well and part of my job here is to ensure it. I would be the first person to object and leave (and be mildly surprised) if George Orwell started running the place and my office in particular was turned into room 101.

The only thing that made me rather sad in Redifiya's posting was this idea that he is "on to me". In the beginning he calls me honest and courteous, but at the end of the discussion he describes me as one of the representatives of those schools of which we must all be wary. I think, deep down, Redifiya was not happy with my frankness and decided this picture of Nixon and Elvis was a way to bash the school for Saudi Arabia's terrible treatment of women.

I agree it's terrible, but each country behaves according to its people's beliefs and if we can help persuade and advise, surely international educators such as Redifiya and I can only serve to be a force for change. As a previous poster has suggested perhaps Redifiya is not as well-traveled, as open-minded or as tolerant as he likes to think he is.

If anyone would like to know more about the King Faisal School, its pay and conditions, or would like to see photos of work and general life here
(or indeed would like the picture of Nixon and Elvis) just leave me a note here.

Sorry for the long post! It is my first and some times a man has gotta do what a man has gotta do etc.

[tomboy666]

oops, Redafiya not Redifiya...I hope this doesn't spark another attack on my school...

[redafiya]

well, I did indeed make the initial post about your school -- but at least 2/3 other posters made it clear they had heard bad things about your school.

Truth will out. You certainly don't need me, so it is all too clear judging from other contributions to this thread, to come up with bad things about your school -- I dont know it at all well enough to carry any authoritative weight to do so.

No, I leave those observations to others -- and they have done so, recounting that they have heard nothing good about your school.

Isnt it interesting that NOT ONE person had anything even vaguely good or supportive to say about your school, the students and the conditions?

No -- the conditions as described by others ( not my speculations please note ) are all -- without fail -- dreadful.

So what is my stake in this? Nothing more than the hope that postings/threads like this can go some small way to stop teachers being abused by EFL schools abroad, or , if not abused, put into extremely compromising situations which are pretty miserable.

I have been in TEFL long enough to have been put in such positions my self -- and it aint pleasant.

On a final point -- if your school is a comfortable place to work -- where are the teachers rushing to defend it -- besides, of course, and all so obviously, paid up members of staff like you -- and your Saudi boss is clearly breathing down your neck to do so.

( PS Your point about xenophobia is a nonsense -- I GREW UP as an expat under Islamic governments, and grew up with Arabs and Persians , living side by side with them for about 20 years from nursery school age onwards. I have no problem with Muslims, and have close Muslim friends now I am in my 40's )

Just to quote the others --

------------------------------------

Scot 47 said --

"I have heard reports from many who worked in this school. Nothing positive."

-------------------------------------
Veiled Sentiments said --

" I actually know a person who taught at King Faisal for a few years... but he had a very high tolerance for BS... and needed to sock away some money quickly.

He regaled me with horror stories about the place. It seemed that every year about 25% of the new teachers would bail out in the first couple of weeks... and another 25% at mid-year... and about 75+% by year end. Very few made it through a 2 year contract.

I wonder if it has changed... "

VS

-----------------------------------------------------------
Stephen Jones said --

The main problem with King Faisal is the hours. The idea of the school is that the students are looked after from 6.30 - 18.00 and from 6.30-14-00 on Thursdays. The teachers have to be present those hours, even though they only teach around 18-20 hours.

When they started in 1994 they paid westterners 13,000 - 14,000 a month, plus a luxury furnished flat. They have cut down on salaries however, and now you are likely to be offered only eight or nine thousand, which goes nowhere to compensate for those hours.

And then there is the problem with teaching the kids of very rich Saudis. It was quite common for students not to attend class between Ramadan and Hajj because they stayed abroad on holiday. One parent had the college fax his kid's homework every night - which they did, to Beverly Hills!"

-------------------------------------------------------------


Again, Veiled Sentiments said --

"When my friend was there, the students declared that silverware and table/chairs were a sinful modern idea. So, everyone had to sit on the floor and eat with their fingers in the student lunchroom."

VS


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.....................So where is the optimistic comment then, from all the staff who found your school such a great place to work at?


PS -- You should realise I have no bad feeling or axe to grind whatsoever regarding your school -- like any other EFL teacher seeking work at a number of academic establishments, my brief querying about your school was simply a very minor footnote whilst rushing to send countless other applications off. I simply reply to you now because you answered my post.

-- Now let's move on, and leave this thread to those whom enjoyed working at your school in the past, and also to those who want to debate it further ( I dont anymore -- I have no need to ) and those who want to know more about your school as a potential workplace.

Good luck with your school -- and good luck patching up those factors which certainly do seem to have made previous staff unhappy.