Job Discussion Forums

[ebolayatollah]

Hello all,

EDIT: I'm reading the thread on Visa's right now. But I would still like these questions answered specifically if possible.

This is my first post here at the cafe. Been browsing around for a few days now waiting for Dave to give me the green light.

So to get right to it, I'm planning on moving to Shanghai in February. But I'm hearing different things about what must be done to obtain a work visa.

I live in the US so I'm not sure if things are different for US citizens going into china than others, but here are the possible scenarios I have:

1. I know people that will house me and help me find a teaching job when I arrive, so if I don't have something lined up ahead of time, I've been told that I can aquire a tourist visa that will be good for 30 days, and once I get a job there I can get the working visa IN china through the company that hires me.

2. My friends have my resume and they are shopping me around to some good schools they know, and I could get picked up BEFORE I move. In this case, I would be able to obtain the working visa before I leave.

3. I've been told that it is possible to obtain a different kind of working Visa in Hong Kong that is good for about 90% of the schools in Shanghai. I've been told that all that is required to obtain this visa is some cash. So I could fly into HK, get the visa, then go to Shanghai to look for work.

A few things about me. I have a BA in English and I've been working for Leapfrog, an educational toy company, for the last 3 1/2 years. I've also been teaching a course in writing and communications to our department for the last month.

I'm also white. I've heard that if you're white you'll have a better chance of finding a teaching job just because of your skin color. Pretty nutty if you ask me.

So taking these conditions into consideration, if I were to go over on a tourist visa and stay with my established friends, do you guys think I would be able to find a job and aquire a position within 30 days? And is that even possible to do when coming from the US?

Thanks in advance for taking the time to help me out. I can't wait to get going on this and all help is greatly appreciated.

Regards,

Chris

[ebolayatollah]

Ok, so i've been reading the Visa thread and now I'm even more confused than before.

Any help regarding the Visa requirements, Residency Permits, and such for the Shanghai province would be greatly appreciated.

[englishgibson]

Shanghai�s a territory is rather unknown to me, although I have been in China for over four years and have worked with arranging foreign teachers and their documentation arrangements. What you are trying to do is exactly what Chinese government does not want. They want you to find a job before you enter China. Americans or Canadians have similar policies there too. It was a bit easier a few years back in China, but the government pushed their existing policies in many parts of China. So, as for China in general and according to its laws, you need an employer, a residency for the purpose of working in China and that�s as much as I can tell you.

[Roger]

And why are you so confused? Is it because you have never been abroad???

IT is simple and straitforward, really!

Get an employer to spnsor you, and he will be liable to get your documents that allow you to live and work here.
It is in no way different from first-world countries.

You have, however, heard of another option which is feasible and often leads to success: you come to China as a tourist and scout the market for employment. That's thoroguhly doable. Just come with enough cash to tide you over, and then, some more!

I have only one critical comment to make: you have been misinformed by some about visas obtained in Hong Kong. You are wrong in belieiving you can buy a "work visa" there. You can't! Visas are not normally a market commodity, dig it? Visas are individual permits that allow their bearers to visit a foreign country for the specified purpose. Someone must verify the purpose of your visit to China, and that can't be a travel agent based in HK - conveniently located outside the jurisdiction the said visa is supposed to cover, yet inside CHina. Doesn't that look a tad suspicious?
Why - if it sn't suspicious to you, - can't you "buy" such a visa back in the merry old U.S.A.?

Yes, it is because those travel agents in HK are crafty smart business alecks. You can get business visas with their help, but no work visa.

This doesn't mean the advice you have read elsewhere is just smoke and fog. The advice you read was given by people not caring about legal implications. Lots of "FTs" are crooks working underground, living in China illegally. In Shanghai this seems to be widely practised, and at this moment, tolerated.
BUt it's not the way to go if you want to negotiate the somewhat narrower but only legal way. The legal way ensures you can stay almost indefinitely.

So, my advice to you is: yes, by all means, do go to HK, buy a 3-month visa (it doesn't have to be a business visa), and go to Shanghai. When you do land a job there, you have a comfortable period left on your visa to go through the legal motions and obtain a regular resident's permit in your passport, not a work visa.

And that 3-month visa you can get from the Chinese Visa Office in Wanchai, HK Island. You don't have to enlist a travel agent (who marks up your visa by as much as 100%).
Sometimes, travel agents are your premiere choice, though - they take one day to get your visa, while the Chinese VIsa BUreau takes at least 24 hours (I seem to remember). That does make a difference to the costs incurred while in HK.

[ebolayatollah]

Thanks for your reply Englishgibson.

I'm finding lots of usefull information on this forum, but not much pertaining to Shanghai itself, and Shanghai seems to be a bit different from the rest of China when it comes to these things.

As for the type of Visa available in HK, I'm not sure what it is. I'm going to have to look into it.

The main point I'm getting here, is that I need to find work before I go. I've already sent my CV to my friend so she can circulate it around some of the reputable schools she knows of.

Roger,

EDIT: Only saw the first half of your post. Currently reading it.

Ok Roger, so what you're telling me is that I CAN get a business visa in HK that will get me going in Shanghai for three months at least? And there are NO requirements to get this Visa in HK besides cold hard cash money?

Another concern I would have is the possibility of having to come back to the US to obtain the correct working permits. What I'm gathering you're telling me is that in Shanghai I can obtain the neccessary docs for living there for at least a year AFTER I enter the city?

To be clear, I'm not interested in "illegal" work, well, besides maybe tutoring here and there or writing if I can find something.

[Babala]

I think it would be best (and legal) if you arranged for work before coming to China. This way you will come over on the legal work visa and don't have to worry about Hong Kong runs. Shanghai has one of the most competitive markets for FT's as many people want to live there. Remember that Shanghai is expensive so really screen your offers. It will also depend on when you are coming and what kind of school you looking for. If you are planning to come in a time when few schools will be hiring it will make job offers few and far between.

[ebolayatollah]

[Spiderman Too]

State Bureau of Foreign Experts Affairs offices in many provinces will no longer convert an 'L' (tourist) visa to a 'Z' (work) visa (which is actually now an in-passport foreigners residence permit). Incidentally, here in Guangdong province they're still doing such conversions.

Anyway, if this happens to you then you'll have to leave China to obtain the correct visa and the nearest (and quickest) place to do so is Hong Kong. Although from Shanghai I would investigate the cost and timing of doing a visa run to Bangkok.

[ebolayatollah]

[ebolayatollah]

Little update here..

So I called the Chinese consulate in San Francisco to ask them directly.

Basically this is how the convo went,

Ebola, "Hello, I have a few questions regarding getting a visa."
Her, "Ok. What are they?"
Ebola, "Well, I'm planning on coming to china in feb and possibly looking for English teaching positions and business opportunities. What I was wondering is, can I go to Shanghai on an L visa and convert it into a working visa with the help of the company I obtain work with? I have friends in Shanghai and they said this is possible to do. I just wanted to make sure before I come."
Her, "It depends on the province."
Ebola, "Right, this is for Shanghai."
Her, "If your friends said you can then you can."
Ebola, "........"
Her, "What's your second question?"
Ebola, "...........Uh, well Ok. So, is it possible to get a tourist visa for longer than 30 days then? What would I have to say to get it extended before I go?"
Her, "Just say you want it extended when you apply."
Ebola, "......"
Her, "What's your third question?"
Ebola, "All I have to do is say I want to stay longer and i can get a visa for longer?"
Her, "Yes."
Ebola, "Erm, ok. What do I need to apply?"
Her, "Your passport and the application and you'll get it in 4-5 business days after we recieve it."
Ebola, "That's it?"
Her, "Yes. Anything else?"
Ebola, "I think that about covers it. Thanks."

Needless to say, I think I'll be making a trip to the Consulate in person, with "extra" documentation. It can't be that easy. I don't believe it.

[Spiderman Too]

Don't confuse the issues of obtaining a tourist visa to China, and changing a tourist visa to a working visa within China.

Tourist visas are quick and easy to obtain from an embassy in your home country. I have also obtained both 'L' (tourist) and 'Z' (work) visas in Bangkok, Thailand.

The visa application form still refers to letters of invitation and submitting an itinerary but, I promise you, for a tourist visa they are no longer necessary (Z visas are a different matter). Just write the name and address of a hotel (any hotel) on the visa application form. You don't need to show a return flight ticket. You don't need to show proof of funds. You don't need anything!

'L' visas are valid for 30/60/90 days (subject to applicants nationality and, of course, cost). It is easy to get one 30-day extension within China, as in you tell the PSB (visa office in China) that you want to extend your holiday and they don't ask why. A second extension request will probably result in an interview.

Recently there was a post on this forum suggesting that US citizens can now get a 12 month tourist visa for China, following a tit-for-tat visa deal between the 2 countries.

You must enter China within 2 months of a Chinese visa being issued. In other words, you can get a Chinese visa up to 2 months in advance of your intended visit.

'L' and 'F' (business) visas are also easy to obtain in Hong Kong. It has been reported that you can get 'F' visa for both 6 and 12 month duration in Hong Kong. They take 2 days. A same-day visa can be obtained in Hong Kong if you submit your application by 9:00 am.

The visa service you provided the link to is somewhat expensive but it would serve as a good back-up should your employer have any problems getting you a foreigners residence permit on an 'L' visa.

[ebolayatollah]

Wow, thanks for the reply Spider.

Some great info.

I actually spoke with a teacher placement agency last night and they pretty much stated (even on their website) that you can go over there on a tourist visa and get it converted. So, I'm getting multiple sources confirming this, including the Chinese Consolate in SF.

So, what this means for me is that I'm going to go for a 60 day Tourist Visa. I'll probably try to get it in the beginning/middle of January. That should give me enough time before I go.

I think I'd rather have the tourist anyways just so I can have a bit more flexibility in the first month in regards to finding the right position. No sponsorship means no contracts with crappy schools that tie me down. At least I'll have a chance to look around in person first.

One question for you Spider, the rep from the consulting group I talked to said that to gain a foreign experts cert I would need to have 2 years teaching experience. And to get a work visa, i have to have the FEC. Then consequently, to have the residence permit, I would have to have the Work Visa. As I don't have 2 years teaching exp., I'd like to know if this guy is bsing me, or if there are ways around it.


TIA.

chris.

[Keath]

Ebola,

I agree with Babela, you should if possible attempt to acquire a position in advance before you go to China. You have friends there so it shouldnt be difficult for them to arrange a school or job for you, they might even be able to make a little commission.

Spideys right on; it really isn't possible to convert the L visa to Z in China anymore. I don't want to discredit the SF consulates office, We deal with the consulates all the time, but alot of those folks working the windows make mistakes and I'd take that info with a grain of salt. The person who would be an authority on this typoe of information would be Dai Shuangmin in the New York Consulates office.

If you are willing to risk going to Shanghai on a tourist or F visa, get a visa that is at least 90-days in duration. You will not be able to convert it to Z visa unless:

A. your school can provide local invitation letter from Shanghai Government (public security department )

B. SAFEA invitation letter.

BUT --> In order to obtain these documents you will absolutely need the following:

1. Resume, English and Chinese Version (Your school can translate)
2. Good quality copy of your diploma and/or UNiv transcripts
3. Signed Contract with your school, Chinese and English Versions.
4. Two letters of Reference
5. Original Passport and a good quality color copy of it.

If your school cannot convert your visa, then make sure they are willing to pay the costs associated with you extending your visa at either of the two venues.

a. Emoo.net (Visa Company in Shanghai that will charge you to do this service) They can in most situation convert L or F to Z visas ONLY if you are working in Shanghai. They cannot perform this service if you are working in another city, province or location. This service may have changed recently so email them first to find out, theyare usually good about responding quickly.)

b. Hong Kong Trip; and the last time I went there in August, they werent too keen about converting L and F visas to Z without serious scrutiny.
<< The most expensive option>>

If you are going for 6 months or less, a F visa is okay, you can convert it with Emoo.net every three months up to 2 times or (6 Months)

If you want to stay a year or more, then you really need to consider getting a Z visa before you arrive.

www.JourneyEast.org
(860) 553-6666 Pre trip consulting

[ebolayatollah]

[Keath]

From the last known info I had (July 2005), Emoo can convert a L or F to a Z so long as you are residing in Shanghai. (They cannot do this service for others who are working outside of Shanghai.

SAFEA invitation letter is a letter issued by the State Administration of Foreign Experts (SAFEA) for you to come and work as a teacher of English as a foreign expert.


In your situation, there isnt a reason why you cant go straight to Shanghai, however I wouldnt advise it as the laws have probably changes since July and are now being enforced to varying degrees.

So basically, as of July you could do this, but as of now, it is still very possible, but risky considering the implementation of new visa regulations and the application of new law..

Weigh your options.

Regards ,

Keith