Job Discussion Forums

[klaus]

[yamahuh]

If I gave my students 80% of the class as conversational time or time to practise their English the classes would be silent!
As it turns out I spend a fair bit of time modelling the language that I want them to put into production and introducing new vocabulary; I allow them about 25 minutes out of 2 X 40 min classes to present dialogues or read aloud. 70% of the time when I ask for volunteers they sit and stare at me like I have two heads so I am forced to 'select' people to speak.
I'd love it if they'd take some initiative and raise their hands to volunteer but they just won't.

[pancakes]

I teach kids (4-12), so much of my class involves modelling the language. However, I was trained (as, it seems, almost all of us were) to try for that 80:20 ratio, and I do keep it in mind as I prepare lessons. We do speaking activities where kids talk and I only say the required things, such as prompting them or asking the rest of the class to be quiet (over and over ). When modelling, if I can fade away from leading them so that they lead themselves, I do.

But overall: I reckon 60 (me) : 40 (them). It would be better, if the kids were quiet when others were talking and paid attention all the time. But, they're kids!

[NorbertRadd]

Roger: quote]They can repeat what someone else has thought up for them either on the tape, or straight from a text book. That's one reason why I can't believe in the perceived merits of oral classes. There is no genuine intellectual input from the students. It's mere repetition, imitating foreign noises without properly understanding them.[/quote]

I've been teaching conversation this semester and trying to teaching the students to speak simple American urban dialogs because they only wish/can speak single words but they can answer the questions from the tape well enough.

Also I've been trying to get them to do their own presentations but so far have had less than 1% success.

I learned my Spanish in a classroom and did the workbook but as for Chinese, self-study has been much more effective. My Henanese composition students wanted to learn conversation and my Cantonese students don't even speak Mandarin well.

The only lesson I can draw on is from Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance where the protagonist discovered only students who wanted to learn ever learned anything.

[dajiang]

ah. great book that.

Anyway, I just wanted to say that I use this 20-80% method as an aim in my lessons, and most of the time I get fairly close.

It depends on many things like Revenant says, of which class size is an important one, and I've found it differs each time.
50-50 is the least attainable though, but it's more about trying to get to 20-80, than considering it a failure if you don't. If you try to put the emphasis more on the students than on yourself, the students will pick up on that.

Certain activities are also more suitable for speaking, and it's those that we as teachers have to make interesting enough for the students to engage in. (this sentence must be wrong somewhere... hmmm)
Basically, you're bound to work in pairs, groups and teams most of the time.

Dajiang

[kev7161]

I hate to be all negative and stuff, but - - I've taught HUNDREDS of high school aged students and only a few DOZEN have ever spoke freely and somewhat naturally. They are trained in their other classes to listen, listen, listen. Some Chinese teachers are trying to change their teaching methods, but I think they are few and far between. So, what can you do to get these kids to speak? Reading dialogues and such can help with pronunciation and give them a sense of sentence structure but it doesn't really teach them how to speak/think for themselves. How about:

. . . have small groups write and perform a rap song? Play an Eminem (or someone) CD beforehand then perform (badly?) your own made up rap song. I'll bet you'd be surprised what they come up with.

. . . speaking of music, play a well-known, beloved English song (Yesterday Once More?). Then, have some themes prepared for the kids to choose from: Food, Money, Travel, Movies, etc. and see if the kids can write their own lyrics, using the soundtrack of the song. I'll bet it's EASY to find a karaoke version of it somewhere!

. . . Charades. Often a winner. Make sure the actions are not too difficult and the kids already should have the language to describe the actions.

. . . Find a recent newspaper story. Nothing too controversial but certainly topical and "today" - - such as Avian Flu, for example. Divide the kids into groups of 3 or 4 and have them talk about it/read the article. Each group must come up with a way to describe the problem, what they feel is being done about it, and what they think should be done about it. (you can play with this idea any way you like). Then they present their ideas. You ask another group if they have similar ideas. Then those two groups get together and come up with their own "news report" making sure everyone contributes orally.

Oh my gosh, I'm running out of time, but if you think about it there are plenty of things that can be done to get the kids to use the English language - - it's up to you, the teacher, to be as creative as you can to "trick" them into doing so. Each class will be different so you have to have a notebook of ideas so you can pick and choose which to use on which level.

[erinyes]

Today I started to ask my students "hey everyone, can you please forget that we are in a classroom and just enjoy having a discussion."

To get my classes of 80 students to talk I often give them engaging questions to give their opinions on. But the problem with this is you have to find a good question. Then I ask them to stand up and give their opinion, then I ask the other students to agree or disagree with the previos comment.

It took a few weeks of getting them to actually say anything, and a few more weeks for them to volunteer to say anything, but I think it works well enough if for the first five minutes you play a loud or fun game, to help them forget they are in school.

It's really hard to get them to realise that the FT isn't like a Chinese teacher. I have adopted the behaviour and mannerisms of the students, and also made myself look foolish many times in front of the class in order to make them comfortable enough to do the same. It's a long road.

Eg. I like to spell words wrong on the black board, and then wait for them to correct me. They call out �E!�
I say �what?�
�E�
�Where?�
�Instead of A!�
�Oh, thanks, sorry! My spoken English is good, but your spelling is better than mine!�
Then they laugh, and probably think I�m foolish, but feel more comfortable, more equal. The feeling of being equal makes them feel more comfortable. And then they seem to talk more.

Lazyness is also a good thing in the classroom. Whenever possible (eg brainstorming) get the students to write the words on the black board.

[andyscott84]

This may result in unpleasantness, but it is a good way to get them to speak with each other. You may notice anywhere, but the best way for a debate/discussion to get underway is when the person is angry. You'll see it even here on Dave's Cafe. Make a statement that makes people angry and see how many reply. You can do the same in class as well.

If you can think of a topic that will get their blood boiling towards each other you can be sure that you'll have a good debate. But, not something that will get you in trouble.

Another way is that people in general are a bit egotistical. So give a topic that would allow them to say great things about themselves too.

For example: Boys VS Girls, which is the better sex? Obviously boys will say boys and vice versa.

This will probably only help with older students or students with good vocabulary. But, you will be surprised with the results, the debate will sometimes last the whole lesson.

Another method I tried was to choose one student and they had to think of a topic that they enjoyed talking about and the rest of the class has to discuss that too. I count to twenty in between each person's comment and if no one speaks, I will choose another student and another topic. Most of these topics didn't last longer than a few minutes. But, at least most people in the class get to talk about something they are interested in.

[Roger]

Those adherents of the 80/20% principle may apply it to students in other countries, basicallywestern orwesternisedones,peoplewho areassertive or have enoughself-confidence.Not Chinese.

Myfirstjob in a TC was todo "oral English", and boy did I hate my job shortly after I took over - until I changed tack!

I had a NEW CONCEPT ENGLISH, and I asked my SELF-PAYINGADULT students toREAD UP and be preparedbefore class.
Can you expect your CHinese students to do homework on their own???

Are they interested in knowing other positions, other ideas? The answer is: no, no, and once more: No!

Homework is seen as a mechanical drilling and training or rehearsing what one has "learnt" in class.

Butmystudents had their own ideas of how I should run their class: "your job is to suggest us an INTERESTING topic, and we will do the talking..."

Inference: no book is interesting. No newspaper carries anything they want to discuss. No other opinion is valid or worthy of their time and thoughts! Only their own intellectual "production" is.

No, I am not condemning my students but I am trying to see their potential that obviously is more limited thanwe at first are led to believe. Watch them as they watch TV - and you see their attention span is much shorter than ours, andtheir interest plummets as soon as people enterinto abstractdialogues;if it's not action then they don't care!

That is why in years of teaching here I don't do plain conversation classes;theremust be more substance in them thanwhatthismoniker suggests, or I won'tdo it.

OK, I encouragemylearners to give PRESENTATIONS,and I set limits: 200 words, or 2 minutes as the casemay be. And the topic is rigorouslydefined,not a either-or wishi-washi "if you had one million yuan, would you donate half of it or not?" I ask them to dwell on one aspect, and one alone: "Cellphones: why are they a public nuisance"? No option to choose to talk why my students prefer cellphones to having no cellphones. Theymust learn to put themselves in the shoes of someone else. They all know that cellphones are often perceived to be intrusive - theysaid so to me that in cinemas and even in buses thenoise emanating from a person barking into his cellphone is unpleasant, yet they do it themselves).

There is plenty of other things to do in class, and I don't have to speak 80% of the time.

Here is another idea: how about using POEMS or song lyrics? Your students can only benefit from reciting them in class! Singly or in pairs!
Take the lyrics of SIMON & GARFUNKEL - very popular in China! My personal musical darling is 'The Wall', in particular the song "We don't need no education" by PINK FLOYD.

[mavazah]

I agree that its usually difficult to get Chinese students to actually speak let along engage in some discussion which of course would involve them having to generate their own concepts and produce their own language. To assist in this process I've gathered some information about what my students are interested in etc. and built some lessons around this. For example, I wrote out some scenarios which outlined some problems experienced by young people and asked them in small groups to discuss the problems and offer 5 pieces of advice and then feedback to the whole class. This worked quite well. Another activity which has worked well is to set some topics that have relevance to every day activities (going to a party, at the hairdressers, etc) and in small groups get students to prepare a small 'play' for presenting to the class, I usually tell students that the play must include 7 verbs, in correct tense, or so many adjectives or whatever the target language is etc. When one group is presenting I set the task for the other students to note the language and count the verbs etc, doesn't always work to keep the noise level or attention of the other students but at least its an attempt at such! Gives the others a task at least and they never know whether I am going to scuttle down the back or the side of the class and put the 'observers' on the spot. I also agree with the song suggestions, my students really love "Yesterday once more" and also "my heart will go on" and I discovered when I was writing out the words to the latter song that its just excellent for practising and teaching contractions - there are heaps of we'll and you're and we're. Some days though...............theory and practice are miles apart!!

[moderntime]

There are loads of excellent suggestions in this thread. I'm stealing everything for my classes. I don't have conversation classes--thank heavens--but it's been a struggle getting my students to really stake out positions and think more critically.