Job Discussion Forums

[checkmate]

I have been reading with some interest the many complaints about teaching in China. Everything from rip off agencies, unprofessional schools or school departments, to unpaid salaries, broken contracts etc.
The complaints are many but usually the same style. I have been teaching in China for 2 years and like others I have had my share of bad situations and incompetent school administrators. There are all the usual complaints and answers which help but in China there is no authority of any value that acts upon foreign teachers complaints. Except for voicing opinions and complaints on websites such as this no real action is taken.
So here is an idea. If there is no official recourse for complaints from teachers how about starting our own federation. Something like a United teachers federation. There are teachers spread across the length and breadth of China and all have experiences both good and bad. I was thinking if we had a sort of data base for teachers in China then this resource could be used to find out information about particular schools from teachers who are actually teaching in them. Of course the data base would need to contain relevant information not personal or emotional biases. Perhaps even photos.
This data base could include information such as school names, adminstrative staff, actual premises photo's, phone numbers, contact information. I know there is this sort of information already but it is scattered and a lot of it is advertising which we all know is less than truthful at times. also local information from the foreign teachers not things such is xxxxx is a beatiful city and had 50000 years of history. Normal things like where to buy food etc, local video shop, transport, bus route numbers etc. Also it could have a red list of schools and people to avoid. If enough teachers hear about bad schools no one will go there. BUT also good schools and I hear there are a couple in China. Also contacts for immigration issues, air tickets and the like. This data base would be free and of course would require participating teachers to contribute.
Most of us know that as foreign teachers we are used as advertisements to get more students, and sometimes merely tolerated as a means to an end. To enable the schools to make more money. Especially "Training Centers".
As in business there is supply and demand but if the supply is limited then the demand increases.

Anyway my name is David. I am from NZ and now live in Shenzhen. I think this is a good idea but maybe some will think it sucks. If we pool our
information then not only does it help us but also for newbies who intend to come to China.
My email is [email protected] if anyone is intersted or just post you comments here.
Thanks
大伟

[Roger]

This idea is not new at all and has been floated here a couple of times before.

It can't be realised for a host of reasons.
One is: a regular teachers' union can only be composed of real teachers. How many among us are credentialled, experienced and meet the criteria China sets for teachers?

If you are not a professional, why on Earth should you expect the Chinese to lend you a sympathetic ear? They think they are already granting you favours, and non-enforcement of teacher qualificiation requirements may be the biggest one for many!

Far more formidable is the legal hurdle: unions are heavily regulated anywhere, especially in a socialist country. You have to meet State criteria to be allowed to set up an union.
Even the forming of a private business association can be viewed by the authorities as a challenge to their laws and their rule; recently Arabs based in Guangzhou were notified by the police that they were not allowed to form a lossely-knit interest group. (The Arabs in question were Yemenis who wanted to set up an association to counter the many attempts, legal and others, made against them by Chinese business circles to cheat them out of their means or to simply renege on contracts. n

[checkmate]

HI Roger,

Thanks for your reply. First I am a real teacher with real qualifications as a teacher.
A lot of the information I was talking about is already here but it is either incomplete or just whinging. I was thinking more a long the lines of an information data base containing such things as school and adminstrative contact details, perhaps photos of the schools especially the living quarters, local information not so much as a union but more of a help/information desk. As you know we cannot form a real union but we should be able to dispense information which assists other teachers. Nothing sensitive but for example generl information about do's and don'ts, local facilities, where to get xxxx. something like a help desk.
I suppose the question is do we need the schools as much as they need us or is it the other way around. If it is then perhaps can we as teachers do more to protect ourselves or do we just accept what is happening and just whinge on the internet to each other.

[erinyes]

You might be after http://www.englishschoolwatch.org/

[clark.w.griswald]

[kev7161]

I think the main problem with this is threefold:

1. China is just so vast. There are so many public schools, private schools, English mills, fly-by-night organizations, etc. To create an undertaking like what you suggest would take a lot of man hours. Who would want to do this?

2. Foreign teachers in China can be as fluid as water - - darting from one teaching job to the next. Granted, some do grow roots and stay for awhile at a certain location, especially if the school is treating them right, but my guess is that a majority of "teachers" come here for things other than teaching. Regardless of whether it is to get laid, to do site-seeing/backpacking, or to buy cheap silk to take home to mother, teachers come and go so quickly. If a school does them wrong, they may b*itch about it here for a minute or two and are quickly on their way to another location.

3. Administrators and FAOs and legit phone numbers at some of these schools also change at the drop of a hat. In May, a poster could list the name, address, and phone number of some crumb-bum that screwed them over and, come the following September, that same location could well be yet another flower shop (or fruit stand)(or barber shop)(or combination of all three!).

In theory, a fine idea - - in reality, probably not easily do-able.

[englishgibson]

Keath, I can't agree more.
Checkmate, it is a great idea. I wish we could share our experiences more and help each other. I wish we could take charge here. I wish we could avoid grievances of others as well as our own here in China.
The schoolwatch site as menionted above is something similar that you are suggesting, even though you'd like to take more of a "unionized" approach. Speaking of schoolwatch, the owner often faces complaints from from THE SCHOOLS as well as threats such as legal actions etc. Davescafe might have had a fair bit of that too.
My postings/compliants on both created a couple of vicious threats to the owners of the sites.
As Clark is involved in a site (Buxiban, I believe) he knows better than many of us what it takes and he might have got a point here.
Speaking of that union and assuming that most/all of us would be the foreigners there, I hope that you are aware of something like "DO NOT INTERFERE IN CHINA'S AFFAIRS" quote from their laws somewhere as well as "GATHERINGS OF MORE THAN FIVE PEOPLE ARE ILLEGAL". These could be translated in any business desputes in favor of employers as well.
Further more, I must join Roger on that teachers' qualifications issues that are very common in China. A number of foreign teachers have little to go on with, if you know what I mean. This has not been aimed at you, so do not feel offended please. "Anytime a confrontation happens between two parties, one will dig deep in the dirt of the other one". Again I hope that you know what I mean by that.

I myself ran into issues in China that I did not really know how to deal with or who to turn to. And so, I do really feel something of an organized union consisted of us would be much helpful.

Cheers and beers

[Goyougoodthing]

Clarke,

After you repeatedly, and ad nauseam, stated that you are not connected to this bixiban site you, when it suites, and when you feel like somersaulting more often that the worlds best gymnasts, you state:

�the website that I am involved with�

Your connection with this site is quite clear, as you are connected to it, in a far greater capacity than just to �help out a friend� as you have a vested interest in ramping it up, displaying it and advertising it on this site.

For those who are interested the site to which Clark refers is outdated in its content, incorrect in its detail, which renders the site irrelevant.

The point that the poster is making is to establish a database of schools, which provides specific information concerning each particular school. Now, that would involve teachers currently at these schools writing a simple report containing information on: the school, its facilities, curriculum, Foreign Director and a short description of the city.

If possible some photos of the school and accommodation could be forwarded. There does not have to be a large amount of money spent on such a concept.

If the poster is willing, then the submission can be forwarded to him, he can store the data, and when others wish to make a specific query concerning a particular school, if available, he can forward that file.

Under such a simple system, I am sure some teachers would partake in the opportunity, and just like a snow ball will grow with time.

A realistic proposition, and one that will commence with one submission, it will not however, start if the negativity coming from those with an obvious ulterior motive for posting continue to flood the forum with their piffle and promotional activities.

If the poster would like to PM on a structured and effective, and cheap way to set such a system up, then I would be more than willing to assist, as I have heard such a theory being bandied around for over 7 years here in China.

[vikdk]

when considering the concept of a union, take this in mind -

many FT's in China would never be admitted into a teaching union back home, because they are not qualified teachers.

Ah-ha maybe union membership would be a good idea here - but alas a pipedream

[englishgibson]

Goy, good point above!
Cheers and beers

[vikdk]

glad you agree Englishgibson - maybe the biggest scourge of Chinese education, as far as FT's are concerned - isn't the so-called illegal teachers - but the presence of so many underqualified teachers!!

In this respect a real cynic could say - that FT's deserve the often sub standard levels of employment found in China!

but hopefuly we are all optomists and things will change

[YearOfTheDog]

[clark.w.griswald]

Thanks so much Yearofthedog. It is heartening to hear that some people appreciate a site that we spend so much time maintaining. It is people such as yourself who keep the site going. In fact I can guarantee that anyone who has ever been in contact with that site for help would attest to the fact that the information we give is about helping teachers in China, not about making money as some people would like you to believe.

To the OP, Goyougoodthing's response in this thread is the sort of negative feedback that I was referring to in my earlier post. Since becoming involved in providing information about schools in much the same way that you have suggested we need, I have been surprised about the negativity of some teachers to what would seem to be a much needed service to teachers. I suspect that no matter how well intentioned you may be, that you will be subject to the same baseless and uninformed accusations that we have been subject to, and I just wanted to warn you about that. The interesting thing is that the people who are your most vocal critics are also the people who often have the least to offer.

I didn't want to make this a thread about me even though the subject of this thread is something that I possibly have more experience with than anyone here, but as matters have been raised I should clarify the inaccuracies posted.

[Goyougoodthing]

Clark,

Once again, you have missed the point in your sentence by sentence diatribe. There are two clear and separate points here:

1. Is the fact that you and others are promoting on the forum
2. Relates to the posters original suggestion to create a database relating certain conditions at Chinese schools.

Let us look at the first point.

Now take note and don�t get your knickers in a knot, the point is that you and others are blatantly advertising and promoting your websites on this forum, if you wish for people to visit your site, great, but this is not the place for you to be advertising it. Mention it, discuss it do what ever you will, but there should be no provision for you to advertise it, provide links to it, or anything of this nature on the forum itself, if you wish to gather the members of Daves ESL to visit your site, again, great, then there should be two options here, either pay for it or provide the information in a PM, simple as that.

Now, in regard to the rest of your diatribe, your site is made up purely of copied outdated data, which you have admitted to, in the unsuccessful attempt to offer something that is useful, perhaps it is to some, but those who perform even the smallest amount of research, will discover that what I stating is indeed fact, it is outdated data, prettied up to make it look newsworthy.

Furthermore, if you think that for one minute that I, or others, believe that you are providing this service out of the kindness of your heart, that is truly laughable, you state that you have made no money thus far from the venture, but in the same breath announce that you are accepting advertising revenue from the site, when such revenue exceeds your costs, what then? Will you start paying for your own advertising on this forum � I think not.

The mere fact that your site is now receiving advertising revenue is due, to a large extent, on the FACT that you ramp up your site and throw your posts around this site like things are going out of fashion, advertising and promoting at any given opportunity on this forum, which, as you are well aware, directly relates to the number of hits you receive on your site, which directly relates back to � you guessed it - advertising revenue.

So, if you wish to continue to scribe long drawn out plies of misinformation on this topic, it is no skin off my nose, however, do not attempt to insult the intelligence of readers by trying to gloss over the fact that your incessant ranting and promotion about your site on this forum does not directly affect the present or future profitability of your site, because that is simple HOGWASH, for even the simplest citizens know: more hits = more revenue.

As to my involvement or otherwise in regard to the issues raised in this post, and the services that I may or may not offer, is not for discussion here.

You are promoting your site on this forum, that is the bottom line, there are appropriate ways and avenues in which to do this, and it is not here.

I shall address the second issue a little later

[pancakes]

Goyougoodthing,

I use the signature function here, as do many others, as free advertising. I asked mods about it before I did it. The response was that there is no rule against it, so go for it.

I agree that if one site competes with another, advertising in this way on the other is poor form. But, at the same time, if it helps people then what's the harm?

Whether or not there is now money being made, I do believe the buxiban site was set up initially simply to help out newbies.

Why don't you do as others have said, and do better? You could at least try something... anything to help. It would be a more productive use of your time than whinging here.