Job Discussion Forums

Borromeo · Joined: 05 Nov 2005 Posts: 16

Hello everybody,

In a way this is continuing a discussion I began on another thread (bunch of newb questions). As I explained there, I am a thirty-two-year old with ten years of experience teaching English--two years in South Korea, six years in New York City, which is my home town, and two years in China. Just about all of that experience has been in teaching adults, and it is teaching adults which I think I'm good at and want to do.

The past two months have been extremely difficult as one interview after another has led to nothing. Then, last week, I was offered three jobs at once. Two of them are here in Taipei but offer rather fewer teaching hours than I want, and one of them would be illegal. The third was in Taoyuan, and although I don't especially like Taoyuan I liked the school a lot. It looked like a serious, professional place and the conditions, as described to me at two seperate interviews, sounded good. Of particular importance: she said I could teach about thirty hours a week. She volunteered that I would only have to be in the school when I had a class to teach. I asked if this meant that there would not be the sort of meetings, paperwork, requirement that the teacher arrive an hour before class etc. with which schools sometimes fill a lot of the teacher's free time, and she said yes. About vacation time, she said there would be a week to ten days at Chinese New Year. When I asked if I could take further vacation time, assuming of course that I gave a month's notice, she said yes.

One problem in the beginning was that the school wanted me to work six days a week. I told them that if I had to live in Taoyuan, I would at least like to be able to spend weekends in Taipei, or in the mountains, so I asked if it might be possible for me to work five days a week instead. After a few days she said that if I agreed to teach on Saturdays for three or four months, then I would be able to have three or four months without having to teach on Saturdays, provided only that I agreed to substitute on Saturday should they ever need a substitute. This sounded reasonable to me and I agreed.

She called me and asked me to come to their school to sign the contract. I asked whether there would be any rules or regulations I should know about and she said "no, it's just like, the teacher needs to turn off the cell phone in the classroom".

Well, I went to the school, a third time, and the contract was very different from what they had led me to expect.

I. In addition to teaching hours, there might be administrative duties, for which I would be paid 200NT an hours. The description of these administrative duties was vague in the extreme, and the contract said there would be "no more than 15" such hours a week. One thing she specified was that I might be asked once or twice a week to sit in the school coffee shop "to converse with students" for forty-five minutes before class; she also mentioned attendance at a Christmas party. I have no problem with a Christmas party, but the "conversing with students" for 200 an hour is another thing altogether, and 15 hours a week of unspecified work is quite another entirely.

II. If I need time off, I must give notice at least three days in advance, and I will lose 200% of my pay. That is to say, if I need to take a day off, even if I give advance notice, I will lose two days pay. If I get sick, I must give at least 24 hours notice, and have a doctor's note, and then I will only lose 150% pay.

III. Here is the biggest problem: They will take 15,000NT out of my first month's salary as a deposit. I will get it back at the end of the employment period "if I don't break any rules."

IV. For the rest, the contract was filled with such language as "the teacher must unconditionally accept any classes he is asked to teach." "The teacher must follow all the rules of the school and obey the supervisors." "The teacher must teach according to the methods of the school." etc. etc. etc. On one level this is not unreasonable: anyone who works anywhere has to follow the rules of the institution and obey the boss. That is life. However the way the contract stressed these things, besides making them sound like a very authoritarian and forbidding place to work for, made me wonder. What exactly would the rules be? How much autonomy, if any, would I be given in the classroom? It all makes me realize how little I know about this school, even after three visits. This would not be such a big deal in the "real world" where, if the job didn't work out, I could easily give notice and find another job. But in an environment in which one is expected to sign a contract with all sorts of penalties attached to breaking the same, I feel as if I'm agreeing to marry someone.

I told her that I could not accept the "200%" rule for missing work with notice, and I could not accept the deposit. She asked why, and as for the deposit I said that it suggested a serious lack of trust. I asked her to consider how much she was asking me to trust her. She said that after three or four months I wouldn't have to work Saturdays and I had to trust that this would be true. She said that the "administrative duties" would not be onerous and I am supposed to trust that this is true. I am to promise to obey all the rules, and I simply need to trust that those rules will be reasonable ones. I am supposed to teach according to their methods, and I must simply trust that those methods will be congenial to me. I must promise to teach at any time they want me to teach, and I must simply trust that they will not give me an absurdly broken schedule. I am to trust all this--but they trust me so little that they take a deposit out of my first paycheck? And who is to say that they will not refuse to return it on some frivolous pretext?

So what should I do? I really like Taiwan and I don't want to leave. I'm happier here than I was in China or in the U.S., in some ways. But in two months I have had a very bad impression of many of the schools. Now here is a school that has offered me a job, with potentially many hours.

Is my objection to some of these things unreasonable? I would very great appreciate the opinion of others, especially regarding the deposit and the business of taking time off. I rarely get sick but it does happen sometimes. I take off for Good Friday. I have a Grandmother back home who is eighty-eight and a great-aunt who is ninety, and although they are both in excellent health, were anything to happen to them, I would feel compelled to return home, if only briefly. And it would be totally unacceptable, in those cases, for them to subtract double pay for the time I took off.

thanks a lot in advance for any advice.

Best wishes,
Borromeo

clark.w.griswald · Joined: 06 Dec 2004 Posts: 2056

The contract that they have supplied is certainly a concern. On the one side you have legislation that you could hold up to prevent them from enforcing some of the terms of the contract and on the other side you have the fact that if you raise too many concerns prior to signing then they may quite reasonably retract the job offer. I am not sure which way you will end up jumping but here is my two cents worth.

If this job doesn't work out then there will be other opportunities, so don't go for it unless you feel confident that it is worth it despite the problems. That said, it does sound like quite a good job as far as the number of hours available with adults. I doubt that you would find this at many places, so don't give the opportunity away too quickly.

sbettinson · Joined: 22 Jul 2004 Posts: 81 Location: Taichung

Hi,

I was reading your thread and found it to be quite an interesting dilemma.

It seems that you are a very experienced ESL teacher with an obvious background in working at a number of institutions across the world.

In answering your question about whether to accept the terms of the contract or not you are faced with 2 problems. The first is that you like the look of the job and on the face of it it would seem the logical choice but due to the conditions outlined in the contract regarding deposits and time off etc it would seem a little dubious to take them up. It seems like there is a large amount of distrust based on previous employees, hence the reason they want to bind you in lock and stock.

The second is that if you push the issue of all these conditions and state they are unnacceptable they could easily withdraw the offer and find someone who is willing to take them on.

Based on your previous working experience I would say that you would be in fairly high demand and at your stage of the game I would push all the buttons possible so that you are in a better position of employment. You could certainly take advice of "getting your foot in the door" and then see what happens but once they have you contractually bound they may or may not decide to push you around and you could potentially come out worse off.

My honest advice would be to keep looking. If time is on your side and you can get a few jobs here and there with other schools you will definitely be presented with more opportunities as you keep looking. I know of some people who work in about 4 different schools to earn their money. This is not for everyone but it is worth considering and the 15,000 NT deposit the school is looking for would see you through a Visa run if you needed to take one.

I think what may look like a honeypot could in fact be a trap and as the saying goes, "if it looks too good to be true, it probably is." Perhaps I am being too negative but realistically are you going to lose out big time by not taking this job?

I would keep at them for more information and if they are willing to give you it then great. If not then I would be suspicious. Definitely talk to the teachers there too and see what their typical day consists of.

Any legal specifics I would definitely be looking towards clark.w.griswalds post about your rights as a teacher here. A fantastically useful article.

Good luck.

Shaun

Borromeo · Joined: 05 Nov 2005 Posts: 16

timmyjames1976 · Joined: 26 Jan 2005 Posts: 148

that is not a good contract...no way to dance around it...it is bad

Pop Fly · Joined: 15 Feb 2003 Posts: 429

I would not sign that contract. Deposits are illegal. I would get a copy of it and take it to the CLA. It is a fool's folly for sure.

Good luck to you, but imo, I'd keep the search going.

Ki · Joined: 23 Jul 2004 Posts: 475

Yes, there are still a lot of schools out there that want you to sign to the very worst of conditions. Do not compromise yourself. You don't need this contract, especially under those conditions. At first they will tell you that it is the standard contract but literally cross them out with a pen and write your own conditions in. The worst that can happen is that you don't get the job. State for them that you will finish your contract but you cannot pay an illegal bond and you cannot accept unpaid office hours, etc. I would even go so far as to state that the school should be very weary of any teacher that would sign that contract. The school says that you won't have to work Saturdays after three months so write that into the contract.

TaoyuanSteve · Joined: 05 Feb 2003 Posts: 1028 Location: Taoyuan

I wouldn't sign either. I think we now know why they have trouble getting and retaining staff.

I wouldn't accept the three month weekend working scenario. Once you accept working Saturdays, it will be hard get out of it. Suggest Mondays off instead and see what they say. Offer to work with them on it and suggest they stagger the work weeks of the foreign staff (ie some take Sat-Sun off and others Sun-Mon). There are relatively few stat holidays in Taiwan. If you take a six day work week, you'll burn out.

The 200% off for sick days is silly and illegal, as is 150% for a legit illness with a doctor's note. I wouldn't go for the advice that suggests signing the contract and fighting if they tried to make a deduction. It's best not to take a job where it is clear they will attempt to undertake such an action. Try to negotiate it out of the deal or walk. Always better to avoid the conflict in the first place, regardless of where the law stands on the issue.

I agree you should get a clarification on the admin duties. The coffee chats wouldn't bother me too much, although they seem alot like one to one teaching scenarios. Tell them to throw in a free coffee and you'll do it.

My take on this, given my prior experience with the school, is that you have a lot of negotiating room and power. They are a school that has, for some time now, had trouble attracting and retaining staff. Don't be afraid to bargain hard.

Borromeo · Joined: 05 Nov 2005 Posts: 16

clark.w.griswald · Joined: 06 Dec 2004 Posts: 2056

Firstly I really hope that your HIV thing was a false positive.

I think that everyone certainly seems to be on the same page as far as advice on this thread, and for once I am not going to disagree with anyone Laughing

I did have some more things that I wanted to add however.

TaoyuanSteve · Joined: 05 Feb 2003 Posts: 1028 Location: Taoyuan

Borromeo · Joined: 05 Nov 2005 Posts: 16

Thank you all for your replies.

Taoyuan Steve, you are undoubtedly right. For most people, and no doubt for me once the news really begins to sink in, I think "having HIV" comes considerably higher on the scale of human unhappiness than "being unable to live in Taiwan". However one salient fact about HIV is that symptoms take so long to appear that I have at least some time to prepare myself for medicines and all that that entails. Leaving Taiwan on the other hand is something that I shall have to do more or less immediately, and teaching English in the Far East, which on some level I think I imagined myself doing for the rest of my life, is now something that I shall never be able to do again. I worked in New York for six years and I loved it there in some ways but I was not particularly happy. Always in the back of my mind was the comforting knowledge that, whenever I wanted to travel and live in foreign countries, I would be able to do so. And when I did finally get tired of New York I did. And I really imagined myself continuing to do so for a long time. For two years in China, where I lived because I had a good university job although I was bored with the life there, I kept thinking, when I go to Taiwan I'll do this, and that, and the other thing. And now that I'm here I'm actually doing some of those things. I developed online friendships with people in Taiwan and now I've met many of those people and started to become real friends and in one case it seemed perhaps more than friends. I studied Chinese for two years and now, finally, I'm at the point of actually being able to use it (despite occasional exasperation with breakfast cooks as I described in another thread.) I've spent a huge amount of energy in the past two months building the foundations of a life here, making friends, learning about the place and looking for a job. This was supposed to be the beginning of an exciting new chapter in my life. Are you surprised if my first reaction is to cast about wildly for a way of staying here?

There is no doubt in my mind that the sane thing to do now is to go back home and start a new life there. I am more mature now than I was the last time I lived in New York and perhaps can take better advantage of that city's cultural resources. If I go home in time for Christmas that could in some measure soften the blow. I spent seven weeks in New York between leaving China and coming here. I loved every minute of it: seeing old friends, visiting favourite places, and teaching at my old school, as I did for five weeks: but not for a minute did I consider that I would want to return to that life permanently, and much of the joy even of that seven-week hiatus consisted in excitedly looking forward to coming here--I remember almost every night chatting with online friends here and saying "I'll be in Taipei in four more weeks! I'll be there in three more weeks!" With the fatalism which is one possible response to calamity, part of me wants to go on living here, illegally if necessary, with the dark consolation that to someone waiting for the effects of HIV to begin, deportation will be no great matter.

I shall, however, do nothing of the sort. Assuming the diagnosis is correct, I shall visit a few of Taiwan's scenic spots and then prepare for my new life. I shall not complain. I elieve that God has a purpose behind everything that happens in this life and I will try to figure out what He wants me to do in this. Who knows whether this will be a blessing in the long run? I've always had, in the back of my mind, the idea that going to graduate school was what I really should be doing, and I've put it off year after year because quite frankly roaming around Asia is so much easier and so much more fun. Perhaps this is my chance, and if I do get into graduate school I may well come to find myself more usefully employed there than working for Richmond Institute or any other. Who knows whether the appalling contract at Richmond Institute was not a kindly Providence's means of suggesting to me that my life here might not be having been something worth sighing over anyway? My life has been so happy already that even if I were assured of certain and immediate death, I would not think myself justified in complaining.

In the meantime I have an unusual predicament. A week lies before me during which I must vibrate in uncertainty as to the test results. That the results of the first test were false is not highly likely but it is possible. (The doctor's exact words were that I had tested positive but low positive and so he needs to do another test. My doctor friend in the U.S. says this statement makes no sense at all. HIV DNA are either present or they are not. At any rate, in America there is a 0.2% chance of the first test results proving false. There are no statistics for here.) During this week I suppose prudence suggests that I continue to negotiate with the various schools from whom I might have gotten jobs. After all, should it turn out that the test results were false, a week incommunicado might well deal the coup de grace to any effort on my part to get jobs in these schools. On the other hand, my heart really isn't in it--especially in writing the long complicated letter which yesterday morning, before visiting the hospital to pick up my test results, I had begun writing to Richmond Institute tactfully explaining to them why I found so many parts of their contract unacceptable.

Best wishes

Borromeo · Joined: 05 Nov 2005 Posts: 16

Ki · Joined: 23 Jul 2004 Posts: 475

Not sure about other countries but it seems that contracts here vary greatly. What you see in this contract is not by any means isolated. Nor is it the norm. Many schools will expect you to sign to an impossible contract with many penalties and clauses. You will have to give them one to three months notice but they won't give you any notice at all, legal or not.

Don't worry about holidays until after you sign your contract. As long as you don't have to pay any penalty for taking time off that is. Most teachers negotiate about two weeks unpaid vacation every six months.

Schools vary also with teaching method. It is my understanding that chain schools have their set method, at least in head office, but most other schools don't really care as long as no one complains.

I wouldn't rule out the school entirely but I would rule out some of these clauses. State politely but firmly that you are committed to work there but you cannot sign under these conditions. If they are indeed a good workplace they will want to keep a good teacher. Negotiate the two day weekend, even if it means your extra day is Monday. I know so many people here who hate working Saturdays every week. Keep looking for other work this week.

Borromeo · Joined: 05 Nov 2005 Posts: 16

I myself would have no problem working on Saturday and having Sunday and Monday off; in fact I like the idea for several reasons. However I never suggested this to them because of the nature of their schedule. They have four kinds of classes: Monday and Wednesday; Tuesday and Thursday; Wednesday and Friday; and Saturday. Not working on Monday would mean not being able to teach any of their Monday and Wednesday classes, which since that involves two days a week I assume they wouldn't be happy about. Of course if they have lots of Wednesday-Friday classes that in fact shouldn't be much of a problem.