Job Discussion Forums

[erinyes]

[edit]Sorry about the POLL - you can see the Poll title was meant to be option ONE.... can someone with the know-how tell me how to fix this???[edit]

Hi everyone, I want to pose a question for general discussion.

Is working with an F visa really a bad thing if every local authority and organisation involved knows you�re doing it, and accepts it.

In the case of the teachers in our small town, we're all work on F visas. We have worked with F visas for a long time now and the local PSB knows exactly what is going on. The local Ministry of Labour knows about it as well, so does the local branch of the Foreign Experts office. And we work in the key public school in our small town so ALL of the police and government officials who have children at the school MUST know what is going on.

We have the right qualifications to get the Z visa, but just can�t get it for reasons outlined below.

Our school has been in the process of applying for a licence to hire foreign teachers for over a year now, and the *ahem* gentleman in the local Foreign Experts office hasn�t moved a finger to process the documentation that the school has sent. His ability to do his job seems to be on par with a slug�s. (He is presumably waiting for a gift.)

If the local authorities were expedient and efficient in executing their duties we would all have been on Z visas before we ever stepped into the country. Our school and the foreign teachers have been working as hard as we can to do everything completely legally and by the book to no avail.

Around here (a small town in Guangdong province) it is impossible to follow the letter of the law, because the normal procedures of government are so pathetic (or non-existent). People say that this part of China is the most corrupt and I totally believe them, the stories of the government in this town astound and anger me sometimes so much that I can barely believe it. But I digress.

My opinion is that in certain situations people working on F visas shouldn�t be looked down upon in the ESL teaching world as China itself creates the problem. Despite the best efforts of some of us foreigners to play by the rules, some of the authorities themselves make it impossible for us to follow the letter of the law as set down by the central government. They play it by their own rules in order to work around the various individuals who sit in the offices picking their noses instead of doing their jobs.

[stil]

[tw]

Perhaps you should check the threads www.eslcafe.com/forums/job/viewtopic.php?t=26836 and www.eslcafe.com/forums/job/viewtopic.php?t=26417

[Roger]

[erinyes]

Yes, the Local Authorities did issue us with the F visa. And we even have the Employment Permit!

Yes, I do feel safe. This school would have had no FTs for 2 years now had they been doing things by the book.

Safe or not, I'll be leaving this post in two short months and I'll be happy to be going to the next position Z visa in hand.

Smal town Guangdong seems honestly to exist outside the law in a way that it's hard for us the comprehend you know. So much of what happens here is adhoc or improvised.Yes, the Local Authorities did issue us with the F visa. And we even have the Employment Permit!

Yes, I do feel safe. This school would have had no FTs for 2 years now had they been doing things by the book.

Safe or not, I'll be leaving this post in two short months and I'll be happy to be going to the next position Z visa in hand.

Small town Guangdong seems honestly to exist outside the law in a way that it's hard for us the comprehend you know. So much of what happens here is ad hoc or shady.

[Spiderman Too]

[pancakes]

nice example, Spidy

[nolefan]

ideally, everyone working in China SHOULD have their FRP and FEC. The rules and procedures to obtain them are clearly outlined in the official employment guides.

However, theory and practice often clash in this country because the wording of the laws and regulations is too vague and open to interpretations at the provincial level. Whenever there is more than one possible interpretation, the local authorities choose to sit it out and let people get away with many things.

In some provinces, there is no way AT THE MOMENT to get that FRP or the FEC so the schools have no choice but to use F visas. I know of many a school in hebei province with permission to hire foreign teachers that cannot get them the FRP and have to resort to 6 month contracts and F visas.

If your F was issued by the local PSB, then they do know who you are, where you are and what you do. You should be reasonably safe and OK as long as they have no grief with you or your bosses. It is not illegal but it is not quite legal either. If there is a problem, then your bosses will take the fall in most cases, not you.

[vikdk]

an F visa entitles you to be an "educational consultant" - " advising a Chinese teacher within the classroom - you of course have expenses which are paid every month.

there is no problem getting this visa from most local PSB's - as long as your company has the correct papers at province level. you can get F visas up to 1 year and renew them ad infinitum but just for a 3 month period after the initial year has finished.

[Babala]

I do know of two teachers who were fined 5000 RMB for working on a F visa. They were taken into the police station and questioned for hours. The police made them pay the fine (and fined the school) but let them remain in China. They changed their F visas into 1 month tourist visas which allowed them time to find another job.

I think if someone is comfortable working on a F visa then do it. However if they get screwed over with no means of recourse then don't come on whinging about it.

[Spiderman Too]

I totally believe Babala's report, and here's a repeat of my August 6 message;

[latefordinner]

I've told my own story before (it's a bit similar to Babala's friends') and don't intend to drag it all out again. I made the mistake of accepting an F visa because I was willing to get along and go along, and in the end was defrauded to the tune of over 10,000 rmb. Certainly, if you really want to work for XXXX school and make life easy for them, do it. But if you get cheated, no one is going to do anything for you. So why should you travel so far and put your personal well-being and professional reputation on the line for people who don't care enough to follow their own laws?

[amandabarrick]

In my opinion it's illegal if you are getting paid. But as with most laws in China, just because it's illegal doesn't mean it is enforced or that people don't do it. Same as stop lights.

AB

[klasies]

Spidey two

My son had the correct new multi entry "Z" visa and Foreign Experts Book from school A. What he did was find extra work at school B. School B was not anthorised to employ foreigners. School A was unaware that he was working at school B.
Bottom line both he and school B denied that he had been working for money. They told the PSB that he, my son, was working for free for the benefit of the children in school B. They didn't believe him but they couldn't prove that he was getting paid.
Result: He was told to stop or face deportation and school B was fined heavily.
School A was pis sed at him and fined him 1000 yuan and warned him never to do it again. The fine of 1000 yuan was part of his contract with school A.
He left school A shortly afterwards because of personality differences with the owner. He is now in Shanghai working for a middle school as well as 3 other places, two schools as well as some corporate teaching, all with the blessing of his school and the local PSB. Go figure. China is a land of contrasts and contridictions.

Happy Spidey two?


A

[Spiderman Too]