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abufletcher
Joined: 14 Sep 2005
Posts: 779
Location: Shikoku Japan (for now)
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 Posted: Tue Dec 06, 2005 5:29 am Post subject: |
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| kdynamic wrote: |
| Why do you want to learn Kanji? If you don't plan to stay in Japan very long term, it's a lot of effort for something you will quickly forget. |
Right. Not only does it take YEARS AND YEARS to learn useful amounts of kanji but then you've got to maintain them or you forget how to write them!
My own kids were fairly fluent in Japanese when they left. I had them do the 2kyu test back in the US and they thought it was really easy. Anyway, a couple of years later their knowledge of kanji has seriously deteriorated.
BTW, sometimes I wonder how many of my Japanese university students could pass the 1kyu. |
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Zzonkmiles
Joined: 05 Apr 2003
Posts: 309
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| Posted: Tue Dec 06, 2005 5:33 am Post subject: |
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| abufletcher wrote: |
| Zzonkmiles wrote: |
| There IS a method to the madness (most of the time). For example, if you combine ? (the kanji alone means "dark (kurai)" but its on-yomi is "an") and ? (the kanji alone indicates "show" and is read as "ji"), you get ??, read as "anji," which means "hint." When you "show" something in a "dark" or "shrouded" way, you are giving a "hint." Kinda logical, right? |
This is just the kind of semantic silliness that you often hear from Japanese as a foreign language and Kokugo teachers trying in desperation to convince their students that "Kanji use IS logical. Really!"  This will get you about as far and assuming that knowledge of all the bound morphemes in a word like "atheist" will allow you to understand the word. Well, actually it does. But isn't it just easier to learn the meaning of the word as a whole without having to think about some convoluted semantic etymology?
Seriously, what kind of writing system requires that you spend over 12 years of schooling "getting literate" enough to read a newspaper?
Sure it's pretty but... |
Since you're obviously not convinced, I'll give you another example.
酔 is the character used to say "drunk." The Japanese word for "drunk" is "yopparai." The 酔 kanji can be divided into three parts:
1. 酒 (sake--alcohol)
2. 九 (kyuu--nine)
3. 十 (juu--ten)
So if you have "nine" or "ten" (alcoholic) "drinks," you will most certainly be "drunk," (酔) right?  The point is that even if you don't know the actual readings of the kanji, you can often accurately guess their meanings just by looking at their radicals and other components. You may think this is "semantic silliness," but it makes perfect sense to me. It's quite possible that we simply process information differently. And, while we're talking about "semantic silliness," assuming you can read Japanese, how would you go about explaining a kanji's meaning? Perhaps you know a way that is more effective--and in that case, I'd like to know for my own benefit.
And for the poster who questioned why one should even bother learning kanji if we're not going to stay here for a long time and will quickly forget it when we leave, I would say that your quality of life in Japan will improve DRASTICALLY if you can understand the written language. Being able to speak Japanese is one thing, but having the freedom of being able to *read* it is something entirely different. Remember this the next time you are trying to read a map or a train schedule. Remember this the next time you have to fill out an application that has no English translations. Remember this the next time you go to the izakaya and can't read the menu. Remember this the next time you want to buy that really cool keitai, but are afraid to because all the menus are in Japanese. Remember this the next time you are in the supermarket and can't read the list of ingredients even though you might be allergic to certain foods. Remember this the next time you go to the ATM and it has no English support. Remember this the next time you want to get information about an emergency (such as the train accident in Amagasaki last spring) and there are no English-language newspapers for sale. Remember this the next time you REALLY have to use the toilet and don't know if you're going into the men's or women's restroom. It's a quality of life issue, really.
Granted, if you are only going to be here for a year, there's no sense in trying to learn 1000 kanji. But the more you know, the more independent you will be and the more enriching your experience in Japan will likely be. I don't regret my decision to learn Japanese--kanji and all, at all. In fact, I highly recommend it. |
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Zzonkmiles
Joined: 05 Apr 2003
Posts: 309
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| Posted: Tue Dec 06, 2005 6:20 am Post subject: |
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| abufletcher wrote: |
| This will get you about as far and assuming that knowledge of all the bound morphemes in a word like "atheist" will allow you to understand the word. Well, actually it does. But isn't it just easier to learn the meaning of the word as a whole without having to think about some convoluted semantic etymology? |
In the case of "atheist," the word is 無宗教 (mushukyo). 宗教 (shukyo) is "religion" and 無 (mu/bu) is the character for "no" or "un-." So "no religion" equals "atheist," right? And if you don't know the word 宗教 (shukyo/religion), then you can break that compound word down too. 宗 (shuu) is the character for "sect" and 教 (kyou) is the character used for "teaching." Again, 無 (mu/bu) is the character for "no" or "un-." So an "atheist" is a person that follows "no teaching" of any "sect."
Yes, you can memorize the whole word if you want, and maybe that would be easier in that it would reduce your cognitive load. But if you break down compound words into their basic parts, it can actually help you build your vocabulary. For example, example, if you add 室 (shitsu--the character for "room") and 改 (kai--the character for "change") and combine them with some of the characters from "atheist," you can get:
教室 (kyoshitsu)--classroom
改宗 (kaishuu)--convert
Even if you don't know the word "kyoshitsu," you can still recognize the characters representing "teaching" and "room." Thus, a "teaching room" is a "classroom," right? And combining "change" and "religion" allows you to get "convert," right? Heck, even the medical word word for "penis" makes sense! In case you're interested, the word is 陰茎 (inkei). 陰 (in) is the character for "hidden" and 茎 (kei) is the character for "stem" or "stalk," such as a cornstalk. Thus, "hidden stalk" seems quite appropriate, right? 
Anyway, this approach works for me. (MODS--feel free to edit this post if you deem necessary. I'm not trying to offend anyone; I'm just trying to illustrate a point.  )
| Quote: |
| Seriously, what kind of writing system requires that you spend over 12 years of schooling "getting literate" enough to read a newspaper? |
While complicated, I think written Japanese has its advantages. Kanji allows you to cram a lot more meaning and communication into a much smaller space. For example:
禁煙。
No smoking.
来年友達は来日する。
My friend is coming to Japan next year.
去年鳥獣保護区域で珍しい動物を写真撮った。
I took a picture of a rare animal at the wildlife sanctuary last year.
You can also glance at a series of kanji (such as a sentence) quickly and have a general idea of what the message is even if you aren't paying that much attention to it. If you see 右折禁止 flashing quickly, that's only four characters. And even if you don't catch the entire message, you could deduce that something is not allowed and that whatever it is concerns something associated with "right" (right turn, in this case). But "no right turn" requires all 3 words and all their letters in order for the meaning to be properly understood in English. If you see "no -ight turn," you can still deduce its meaning. But if it's "-o -ight t--n," the meaning is suddenly more obscure. Grammatical correctness aside, is "-o" part of "go" or "do"? Is the message "no night teen?" "do light town?" Even if you make a small mistake with the kanji, such as 右折禁正 or 右断禁止, a native Japanese speaker can still make out what the overall meaning is. The difference between "no right turn" and "no light turn" or "do right turn," however, is very big indeed. But hey, I'm not a professional linguist. This is just how my mind works. While it is indeed difficult, I personally think kanji is a fascinating means of communication and I enjoy the challenge of learning it.
Last edited by Zzonkmiles on Tue Dec 06, 2005 10:28 am; edited 1 time in total |
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abufletcher
Joined: 14 Sep 2005
Posts: 779
Location: Shikoku Japan (for now)
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| Posted: Tue Dec 06, 2005 8:08 am Post subject: |
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You've probably seen this floating around the net:
"Aoccdrnig to rscheearch at an Elingsh uinervtisy, it deosn't mttaer in waht oredr the ltteers in a wrod are, olny taht the frist and lsat ltteres are at the rghit pcleas. The rset can be a toatl mses and you can sitll raed it wouthit a porbelm. Tihs is bcuseae we do not raed ervey lteter by ilstef, but the wrod as a wlohe."
I don't want to open up the old whole language vs. phonics debate but it's clear that proficient readers of English do not just process letters linearly. People seem to have no problem "reading" only the top or bottom half of sentences either.
Anyway, I'm sure my negativity regarding kanji is just a reflection of my frustration at knowing so little of it. I do admire people who have succeeded in acquiring a basic reading proficiency in Japanese -- it's just not one of my own personal goals. |
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markle
Joined: 17 Jan 2003
Posts: 1316
Location: Out of Japan
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| Posted: Tue Dec 06, 2005 8:27 am Post subject: |
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Kanji is not a Japanese construct which a major factor in why it is so complicated. But the Chinese writing system has a number of strengths due to the historical /political development of the language. Since the individual glyphs signified a meaning rather than a sound they were able to be read and understood in all parts of the Chinese empire and sphere of influence (Korea, Mongolia, Japan, Vietnam) regardless of the local language. The Catholic Church had to rely on Latin to achieve the same result.
| SEndrigo wrote: |
| Why not do like the Koreans and invent a more sensible, logical, phonetic writing system?This is the biggest part of the reason why Japanese will NEVER be an international language...no one wants to spends years just to learn how to read this crap. |
As you pointed out they have, hiragana/katakana it's just that since they do learn kanji there is no reason to drop it, it's only the illiterate and foreigners that bitch and whine about it.
A sensible, logical, phonetic, writing system is not a prerequisite for an international language certainly English could never be called sensible or logical. International languages became that way due the wealth and power of the nations the language belongs to (German would be a much more widespread if the American Constitution was written in German, as it very nearly was). Therefore when Chinese becomes one of the handful of surviving international languages the Japanese will have a leg up on the rest of us. |
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markle
Joined: 17 Jan 2003
Posts: 1316
Location: Out of Japan
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| Posted: Tue Dec 06, 2005 8:32 am Post subject: |
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| abufletcher wrote: |
You've probably seen this floating around the net:
"Aoccdrnig to rscheearch at an Elingsh uinervtisy, it deosn't mttaer in waht oredr the ltteers in a wrod are, olny taht the frist and lsat ltteres are at the rghit pcleas. The rset can be a toatl mses and you can sitll raed it wouthit a porbelm. Tihs is bcuseae we do not raed ervey lteter by ilstef, but the wrod as a wlohe."
I don't want to open up the old whole language vs. phonics debate but it's clear that proficient readers of English do not just process letters linearly. People seem to have no problem "reading" only the top or bottom half of sentences either. |
Yes but the same applies to kanji, infact I would say that most Japanese can read a lot more than they can write accurately. |
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guest of Japan
Joined: 28 Feb 2003
Posts: 1601
Location: Japan
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| Posted: Tue Dec 06, 2005 11:28 am Post subject: |
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Markle, I think that was abufletcher's point. The standard teaching of kanji is focused very strongly on exact form and order, even though when reading kanji, people probably react to general images and patterns.
I'm personally still ticked off at the JPLT level 4 test I took a few years back that gave 4 nearly identical kanji for gaku. I could rule two out for having two little strokes on the top left and only one on the right, but the remaining two only differed in the direction the stroke was applied to the paper. They were printed in standard size type and the strokes in question were the little ones on top. It took me two minutes of staring at them to see the difference.
To the person who compared the space difference between kanji and English, write out both senteces by hand and see which takes up less space. I certainly can't write kanji at the same size as a computer can, but it's not too difficult to write English at regular type syze. |
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Temujin
Joined: 14 Sep 2005
Posts: 90
Location: Osaka
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| Posted: Tue Dec 06, 2005 1:21 pm Post subject: Re: kanji |
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| craven wrote: |
| ,Has anyone tried the Hesig stuff? Is it worth the hype? I just got slapped by 1kyu on the JPLT, and want to relax for a couple of months and try something new. |
I'm using it and have been learning 100 a week for a while now. I'm up to 742. The method is fantastic for sheer speed and reliability. The downside is that you'll have very little useable knowledge until you're well into book 2. You learn only one key word for each kanji and learn them in an order designed for learning rather that using them (I know 'gall bladder' and 'judas tree' but I haven't got to 'what' yet). The pronunciations and compounds don't come until book 2, a good 6 months into your study.
I have barely started studying Japanese and want to get the major hurdle that the kanji represent out of the way as quick as possible. Since I'm not in Japan yet and won't be until around March next year, this book is perfect for me, as I'll be able to learn Japanese from a similar position to a Chinese student. If I was in Japan now and wanted to be able to make use of the kanji I was learning this method would probably be less suitable.
In summary, the Heisig method is fantastic for learning all of the standard 2000 kanji quickly, but you sacrifice any short-term usage for long-term efficiency.
EDIT: Oh and for those arguing the logic of the kanji, I'd have to say that logic has to be the exception, not the rule. Maybe I'm missing a lot of meaning since I'm only learning one keyword, but perhaps our resident experts would like to explain the logic of the kanji for beautiful ("large sheep"). I have to say however that the really baffling illogical kanji are the easiest to learn, since the images you make for them are unforgettably surreal. I'll never forget 'branch', the image I have for that is awful ('needle' + 'crotch' in the Heisig method). |
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SEndrigo
Joined: 28 Apr 2004
Posts: 437
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| Posted: Tue Dec 06, 2005 2:32 pm Post subject: |
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| markle wrote: |
As you pointed out they have, hiragana/katakana it's just that since they do learn kanji there is no reason to drop it, it's only the illiterate and foreigners that *beep* and whine about it. |
Uhh, the reason they learn Kanji is that they had no writing system of their own and took it from the Chinese.
But, they soon found out that Chinese characters were much more suited to the monosyllabic Chinese language and not Japanese.
So they had to invent a phonetic alphabet! Which they should have done from the beginning and not messed around with Chinese characters.
And no, illiterates and foreigners are not the only ones whinging about Kanji, many Japanese people whinge about it and these days many young Japanese aren't as interested in learning it.
Why? Abufletcher pointed out quite eloquently earlier, who on earth wants to sit through boring classrooms for 12 years learning how to read archaic, inane symbols whilst the rest of the world has moved on and figured out much more efficient ways of reading and communicating?
I'm not saying Japanese people should stop using Kanji, only that you recognise its limitations and its lack of relevance in today's society.
| markle wrote: |
A sensible, logical, phonetic, writing system is not a prerequisite for an international language certainly English could never be called sensible or logical. |
With all due respect, you're wrong. English is very sensible, in that it is very easy to read. There are only 26 letters, and even allowing for the difficulties in pronunciation, it takes much longer for someone to learn how to read in Japanese than in English.
In the UK, US, Canada and other English speaking nations, even children can read the newspaper.
How many Japanese children can read the Asahi Shinbun?
The very fact that Japanese, Chinese and other such languages have such a steep learning curve when it comes to reading and writing, guarantees that less people are interested in learning them.
Think about it...if you wanted to learn a new language, you could start learning German, French, even Czech right away, because you could read the characters!
A profound thought isn't it!
Actually, if you wanted to learn Korean you could as well, since it's quite easy to read Korean, even though the sentence structure is totally different from English.
But if you wanted to learn Japanese, you'd have to tackle 2000 Kanji, on-yomi, kun-yomi, combinations, etc and Hiragana/Katakana before you could even begin to read anything.
And I won't even get into learning Chinese, with the thousands more Kanji....
| markle wrote: |
| International languages became that way due the wealth and power of the nations the language belongs to (German would be a much more widespread if the American Constitution was written in German, as it very nearly was). |
Oh really?
So the Dutch had a large empire....I don't see Dutch being spoken by too many people. Same goes for Portuguese.
And if you're talking about wealth, Japan is the 2nd biggest economy in the world, so using that logic, Japanese should be more widespread.
And Japan colonised many countries, so the people of those countries should speak Japanese as well?
| markle wrote: |
| Therefore when Chinese becomes one of the handful of surviving international languages the Japanese will have a leg up on the rest of us. |
Uh, wrong again, unfortunately.
Chinese won't become an international language, and neither will Japanese. For the aforementioned reasons and many other reasons which I really can't get into just now.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not anti-Japan or even anti-Kanji.
I think Kanji looks beautiful and it's very interesting to learn.
But it just isn't efficient in today's world, which is dominated by English and other such languages.
Bottom line is no one wants to spend 5 years learning how to read characters before they can read a newspaper. |
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abufletcher
Joined: 14 Sep 2005
Posts: 779
Location: Shikoku Japan (for now)
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| Posted: Tue Dec 06, 2005 2:35 pm Post subject: |
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Again in that mystical "somewhere" I read of work claiming to prove biblical references in the structure of early Chinese kanji -- I think this is part of the vast "creationist" literature. What this sort of thing really demonstrates is that you can come up with almost any semantic leaps you choose with compound kanji.
Love the BIG SHEEP idea! Reminds me of the Turkish proverb "She is so beautiful she can't fit through the door!" |
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SEndrigo
Joined: 28 Apr 2004
Posts: 437
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| Posted: Tue Dec 06, 2005 2:37 pm Post subject: |
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By the way, I hope I don't come across as some sort of English supremacist, quite the contrary actually!
I think Japanese is a great language and quite interesting. I speak decent Japanese (JLPT 2/3 level) even though (you guessed it, haha) my reading and writing are not so good.
I was merely trying to point out what goes on through the minds of many people when they begin learning Japanese (or Chinese), that's all. |
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Rorschach
Joined: 25 Mar 2004
Posts: 130
Location: Osaka
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| Posted: Tue Dec 06, 2005 2:39 pm Post subject: |
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| I find learning kanji the easist part about Japanese. I rarely have a problem retaining new kanji. I guess its how I remember information (alomst photographic). I usually memorise the pattern and stroke order of the kanji. Once I have it, I find it very hard to forget. I memorised a lot of new kanji last week for the JLPT (stuff I didn't really need but thought I'd glance at it) and I still remember as though I looked at it 10 minutes ago. My problem is reading it properly. |
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abufletcher
Joined: 14 Sep 2005
Posts: 779
Location: Shikoku Japan (for now)
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abufletcher
Joined: 14 Sep 2005
Posts: 779
Location: Shikoku Japan (for now)
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silent-noise
Joined: 14 Jun 2005
Posts: 37
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| Posted: Mon Dec 12, 2005 2:34 pm Post subject: |
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thanks for the tips everyone...
other than the very few kanji i know (my name, 1-10, big, small, up, down, horse, snow)...i managed to begin to recognize the kanji for "nihon"...maybe because it's popped up a lot recently in my japanese class...so yeah, i guess familiarity breeds memory...or soemthing like that....
as for the poster who said that he/she has a photographic memory...i think i do too...but when the characters start to get really complicated (i.e. have tons of strokes), everything begins to look the same....hirigana and katakana was MUCH easier to remember photographically....relating each character to an "english" image or phrase... |
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