Job Discussion Forums

[redsoxfan]

I'm in the process of applying for a work permit. I've been researching this topic for many months now, as has my friend in Krakow who has met with two lawyers to discuss the finer points of the matter. I've gone to speak with several people at a couple different Urzad Wojewodski (sp?) and this is what I gather: First I must get a promise of work. This is NOT a contract--it is simply a PROMISE of work. In order to get this, the school must place an ad for a month in the paper looking for Polish teachers, as well as register an ad at the local unemployment/work office (Urzad Pracy). If no Polish teacher can fill the job, my school can give me a PROMISE of work. I then take this, along with my application for my resident's card (Karta Pobytu) to a different office and they review the application and give me a work permit and 2 years residency. I've got a list of twelve or so steps I need to take/things I need to have. It says that "qualifications" are required, but offers no specifics. My girlfriend asked one woman who told us that a college degree is all that is required. I've also heard that one must have teaching experience in Poland, which I have, but it was under the table. This is obviously false anyway. This sheet of paper also quite clearly states that all I need is a PROMISE of work, not a contract. My friend's lawyer confirmed this.

Now, my director told me today that if my school hired me on a full time contract, they'd have to pay a ton in insurance fees--about 900/month. That is why all the full time teachers have their own business--that is, they are private contractors. Thus, the school doesn't have to pay all these insurance fees. So, my question is this: How do I start my own business whereby I am a private English teacher who subcontracts my services to schools? Do I need a karta pobytu first, or can I simply set up a business and use that as my reason for needing a karta pobytu? Someone recently posted that setting up one's own business is the best way to go--please give detailed info if you've got it. Actually, setting up my own business is my ultimate goal anyway because I want to offer lessons outside of cities in places without many teachers. If the powers that be consider this a good service to Poland--it would create a few jobs and reach areas that lack facilities to learn English--would they just grant me a business license right off the bat, and then of course give me a karta pobytu? Because right now, it seems that I need a karta pobytu first, but that means I have to go through this whole mess just to get it. It's expensive too--about 900 zl. My school will pay for it. How can I bypass getting a karta pobytu VIA getting a work permit, and instead simply get a karta pobytu by setting up a business? The work permit seems to be the messiest step by far.

[cezarek]

There are two possibilities.

The school could pay you on 'Umowa o dzielo', meaning a freelance contract. You would be responsible for your own social security payments, but they would deduct tax (at a reasonable rate, usually) at source. Most schools do this anyway, because the extra costs of an 'umowa o pracy' are often higher than their profit margins, and they can only survive by paying on 'umowa o dzielo'.

The other possibility is to register as self-employed. Your school would probably help you with this, since it is in their interest to do so. It can take up to a month, and the paperwork differs (I think) whether or not you are an EU citizen - but it doesn't differ radically. The paperwork, however, is separate from work permits, and you would be a business-person rather than an employee, which affects such matters. You would need a registered address, you would need a spare room in your home (in theory a teaching room - I think there's a way of getting round this rule) - but you'd be able to claim some bills, and you would need a legal basis to be in Poland. Easy if you' have British/Irish citizenship, due to EU accession, not as easy, but still possible if you don't.

You would have to have a bookeeper to file monthly accounts (this is tax-deductible) and you would have to pay a fixed amount of Social Security at the start of each month.

I would recommend the 'Polang' Yahoo Group, where there is a mine of useful information about this.

And 900zl seems rather a lot for a Karta Pobytu, I don't have one for various reasons, but colleagues here in the office generally pay about 30zl. Perhaps that 900zl involves the services of one of those companies who fix them up for people. They aren't a bad idea, since they can make the process easier. If this is the case, they should be able to do everything (promesa, or registering as self-employed). This could be a good idea.

[Alex Shulgin]

[redsoxfan]

Thanks cezarek. If my school pays me on an Umowa o Dzielo basis, do I need a Karta Pobytu first? I'm American, so I have no prior legal basis to live in Poland. Therefore, I still must have a Karta Pobytu first, right? And to get a KP, I need all the other stuff first. Or can I just get a KP without going through the Work Promise step?

I would ultimately like to register as self-employed anyway--that's my ultimate goal. I signed up for the Yahoo group but they haven't registered me yet, but I'll check that out. Also, the 900 zl is for the work permit, not the KP. It's 850 zl for the application and 50 zl for a document that says I haven't had any trouble with the police in Poland. But it seems now that I won't actually be applying for a work permit because my school can't afford the extra insurance fees and still pay me my current wage. So again, how can I get a KP and register as self-employed without getting a Work Promise? I would first need a legal basis for being in Poland, as you said, but for an American, what is that basis? I met one guy who is a "student" but he just paid the first installment and never went to class.

Thanks

[ramef1]

I hope you all do not mind me entering the conversation with a few questions as well. It is ironic, but I entered this forum today with questions regarding a Karta Pobytu and this was the first post I read. After reading the conversation above, I was wondering if I could post a few questions to clarify my own misunderstanding.

First, can someone explain exactly what a Karta Pobytu is? Also, how exactly does it differ from a "residence visa" or "residence visa with work permit" issued by your official country of residence? The reason I ask is this: my roommate, a med student, is about to run out of his 3 months (this weekend, in fact). We both entered together with only our passports, but I have been out of the country a few times for long enough that by the time we leave for Christmas, I will still have not been here 90 days total, much less consecutively. I came across the term "Karta Pobytu" on www.inyourpocket.com/poland/en/category?cid=3050&chid= regarding Poland and its foreign entry requirements. It states that in order to extend your stay past 3 mos., you must just go to the office on ul. Dluga 5 and stand in line--that being issued a KP is a "formality and will be issued with minimum trouble." Figuring this was a naive perspective, I went onto the foreign ministry website, and of course nothing was clear or seemed this simple, as it rarely does in Poland. So my intuition is that both I and the first website are missing something big. I was wondering if anyone could help me figure out what that something is, what getting a KP requires, and what is the best route to go now, especially since we'll be going home soon.

Both my roommate and I are US citizens. As a student, he has a legal basis for being here, but I do not yet as I am currently unemployed...just beginning my job search (long story why it's taken so long to get set up here...) and have a first interview next week (knock on wood).

So here are my biggest questions: Should my roommate try for a KP and then submit his passport for a residence visa while we're home for X-mas? Or should he just try to border hop this weekend? Am I able to try for a KP at all? And should I submit my paperwork for a residence visa for Poland while I'm home even if I do not have a letter promising work yet (i.e., is this letter something that can be submitted after getting the residence visa)? Or will they even let me have a residence visa without a "legal basis" for being here (outside of showing I have sufficient funds, insurance, a place of residence, and the like)? Does anyone know if the Polish Embassy in Washington will actually have a quick turnaround time on visas (especially around X-mas) like they promise on their website (since they never return calls or e-mails!!!)? And since I've not been here for 90 days consecutively, will I be allowed back in after the X-mas holidays if all falls through? If anyone could help answer some of these questions, I would greatly appreciate it. I realize I am uninformed and in a mess; however, sometimes things can't be helped and it is difficult when you read a myriad of different things from different (governmental) authorities. Also, I know this is quite a bit of a diversion from the work permit topic, and I do apologize.

Thanks for your help.

[afowles]

My ideas:

For redsoxfan: stick to the umowa o dzielo. Much easier. Setting up a business here, as I understand, is not easy. And, from what I understand, it's the responsiblity OF THE SCHOOL to apply for your work permit. The umowa o dzielo is something like an intellectual property contract, and your total tax liability is something like 10 percent.

For ramef1: A Karta Pobytu is, literally translated (I think), a "stay card." Basically, it's a temporary green card. Most of them are valid for about a year. You are given one for the amount of time that you can prove you are in Poland for a good reason. Students can get them. It is not a visa. A visa is a document used to enter a country.

Getting them is a bit of work. You have to fill out this long form and then PHOTOCOPY it FOUR TIMES! You need to do it in Polish, so find a friend. Your friend's university might have an office to deal with this.

Tell your friend to borderhop this weekend and to try to legitimize later. He's in no rush, as long as he can prove he's a student.

As for you, since you have no business in Poland at present, I think you'll have to borderhop if you wish to remain legally. As soon as you have a contract, you'll be able to apply for a KP.

This isn't a very clear post. Sorry. I'm tired.

[redsoxfan]

My primary concern is getting a Karta Pobytu, my secondary concern is establishing my own business for reasons not related to my current employment. So, if I do things on a umowa o dzielo basis, can I use that to get a KP? Or must I have a KP first? If I must have a KP first, I'm back to square one. If I can get a KP by teaching Umowa o Dzielo, that's great. How do I do it?

[afowles]

Do you have any contract at all?

Talk to your school. If they are employing you without a work permit, then THEY are in the wrong and ought to rectify the matter.

I'm not sure exactly which documents are necessary for the KP, but you can find out by going to the office, which in Poznan is on Plac Wolnosci. But, I'm pretty sure you need a contract to get a work-based KP. You do not need a KP to get a work permit or a contract.

A lot of the burden rests on the employer. It's just that they all too often slack off and pay under the table. It's unfortunate for those teachers (like you) who wish to reside here legally.

But try going to the office. Sometimes it just matters how much you can charm the lady behind the counter. In my first city, the lady behind the counter (LBTC) was the mother of one of my students, so it was relatively painless. It's been even easier to do it all in Poznan, because the LBTC tends to speak English. Just to be safe, however, bring someone who can translate for you should it become necessary.

[redsoxfan]

I know the drill with Work Permits. I've got the forms already, and if we go through with the process, my school would have to place an ad in the paper and register a vacancy at the Urzad Pracy. I've got my Maldunek and Karta Pobytu application as well. The problem is that my school doesn't employ anyone on a standard, full-time basis because the taxes would amount to 900 zl/month per person. So even full time teachers work under Umowa o Dzielo. If I got a work permit, my school said they would have to reduce my salary by a lot in order to make it worth it for them to hire me, because the taxes are enormous. Therefore, I must work Umowa o Dzielo.

Today I went to some Sad (court) and spoke with a woman, or rather my girlfriend spoke with a woman, about this. She has to check with some department like the Department of Bilateral Cooperation or something like that, if it's cool to give me the permit to work Umowa o Dzielo. Apparently an American has never tried to do this at this place. If so, I must pay 100 zl for the registration, and I'm good to go. I'm told that my extra taxes, including health care and everything, will be only 250 zl/month for the first two years. Who knows. At this point, I believe nothing that I hear because someone always contradicts it with correct information later. If this process doesn't work, I might go crazy. And then try some more.

So, again, do any Americans, and I guess Canadians and Australians too, work on an Umowa o Dziela basis? How do you do it?

[Alex Shulgin]

[redsoxfan]

Thanks Alex. Do I need a Work Permit to work o dzielo? For some strange reason I was under the impression that I don't need a work permit and I can simply sneak under the radar and start working legally o dzielo. That seems too good to be true. Is it? The woman at the Sad said nothing about needing a Work Permit. In fact, my girlfriend understood that if I were British I could get an o dzielo registration on the spot and start working, but since I'm from the States it'll take a couple days.

If I don't need a Work Permit to work o dzielo, is there any reason to bother getting a Work Permit? Also, in addition to placing an ad at Urzad Pracy, should my school also advertise in the paper for a month? Finally, how long must the ad at Urzad Pracy be listed for? A month, right?

[cezarek]

The thing about needing or not needing a work permit is a bit of a grey area. I think, but am not sure, that you should have a work permit first. But I'm reasonably sure that this isn't policed too strongly by the Polish authorities. If, however, you register as self-employed, then you shouldn't need one, since you would then be a business person, rather than an employee, and the regulations are a little different. The Polish Embassy in Washington should, in theory, be able to advise you - but I've heard they aren't always too helpful. Maybe the US Embassy here could help?

[Alex Shulgin]

[redsoxfan]

Thank you cezarek and alex. We went back to the office that deals with private business owners today, and it seems like I do indeed need a work permit before I can work umowa o dzielo. Obviously. But, of course, the woman, though she tried to be helpful, still didn't know this for sure, so she'll call me on Monday.

Man, I've been to so many different offices, and the folks who work there really don't know squat about anything not directly related to their small list of responsibilities. At one place, they told me I could start a business and THEN get a KP because I would have a business. At the place today, they said I need a KP first to start a business. The thought occured to me that they both might be right. That is, they have instructions which contradict the instructions given to employees at other offices. After all, I am apparently the first American to attempt this apparently unimaginable endevour (opening a small business to teach English) in Poznan. So, why should they have weeded out internal contradictions yet? I appreciate Kafka more and more each day.

I guess I'll have to file for a work permit. My maldunek expires on Jan 31, hopefully I'll have enough time to file my KP application after I get my work permit. They say they want 60 days, or at least 45 minimum. Why do they need two months when they could easily review the application in 15 minutes? The answer is: who cares, I'm making a grzane piwo for myself. Then another. Goodnight and thanks for your help. Expect more questions in the near future.

[Khrystene]