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cafebleu
Joined: 10 Feb 2003 Posts: 404
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Posted: Wed Jul 30, 2003 3:48 am Post subject: |
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I enjoyed reading Meteoreo`s post and Paul H`s reply. I would just like to point out to Meteoreo that Japan doesn`t really fit into the so called Malcom X argument because of the fact of traditional Japanese racism towards other Asian cultures.
Meteoreo, if you come to work in Japan (I sincerely hope you do - it`s overall a positive experience) you may have the opportunity that I have had to come into contact with Asians who were born here but are denied equal rights because of their Korean ancestry. Or Chinese ancestry for that matter or any other ancestry that is not purely Japanese.
In the case of the Koreans, usually their Korean great grandfather/smothers were abducted from Korea and forced to work in munitions factories, coal mines etc. Japanese law still denies equal rights to those people - something that has nothing to do with white colonialism but springs from racial discrimination centuries old.
Most of those Asians put the blame squarely at the door of Japanese racism, as their people have been the victims of Japanese colonialism in recent history, and they still suffer from the Japanese notion of racial superiority which stretches back in history. If you get the chance to travel extensively in Asia as I have, you may get the chance to meet Chinese people who will speak passionately about the truth of Japan`s filthy war in China and other Asian countries, and if you are a normal, rational person you will agree with the Chinese viewpoint that what the Japanese did in Nanjing and other parts of China was genocidal in intent.
Yet few if any Japanese textbooks in schools mention anything except an `incident`. Due to the offical suppression of correct historical fact and information, extreme right wing views are again coming to prominence in Japan`s mainstream life and there is little being done to counter them. Japan`s Self Defence Forces have been a recruiting ground for extremist groups in recent years, and books by extreme right wing Japanese groups are being circulated among schoolchildren, some of elementary school age. Among other falsehoods, such books deny the massacres in Nanjing and lower the numbers of dead to ludicrously low proportions.
In western countries, such groups are the fringe and get short shift in the media. In Japan, thanks to the censoring of history largely due to the Japanese notion of racial superiority to other Asians, especially Koreans and Chinese who have to endure racially motivated slurs about `Asian criminals` whenever there is a perceived or actual increase in crime in Japan, the lies are uncontested and spread. Monbusho and other government bodies continually censor historical facts and the free flow of information. I think you will find that most Chinese and Koreans (to name only two Asian peoples who have suffered the most from Japanese colonialism and racism) would disagree vehemently with the notion that we must focus on white colonialism and racism, as they feel so angry about Japan`s Nazi like track record in Asia being denied. |
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oreyade
Joined: 16 Jul 2003 Posts: 23 Location: japan
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Posted: Wed Jul 30, 2003 9:01 am Post subject: TO ASIAN AMERIANS AND OTHER ASIANS IN HERE |
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dear meteoreo and other awake friends...
Its very refreshing to find another Asian presence in here! If you are able to sort out all the layers of subtext in this thread, you can clearly see how three particular White people (GLENSKI, PAULH, CAFEBILE) are sooo intent on targeting only on me, exclusively! Here's a question: Why have they NEVER critiqued each other?? I know they don't necessarily share all the same ideas...
Meteoreo, your important points were excellent and well taken. I'm glad you benefitted from this thread. You presented yourself as a humble and thoughtful person, and yet notice how one of them (ie: PAULH) still questioned part of your post.... Yes, there are many ways to get "the message" across as you recognize.... meteoreo, you present the humble approach that many privileged White people can easily read about, give a passing token-symapthy to (ie: Ah yes, a few of you asians suffer from a few isolated cases of isolated racism, once in a blue moon...) and then these same White people go back into their comfortable bubble of a privileged life and soon forget about what you said like it was yesterday's newspaper.... I'm sure youve met people like that.... (there are ALOT of them in here)
As an Asian American, I assume you know why such minority identities like "Asian American" became necessary at all.... You've all heard, and keep on hearing, the pedantic rhetoric that America is a "free, democratic, equal" country because its guaranteed in "our great constitution and great laws" (and this extends to other White-English countries that openly advertise their Western "liberal-democracy" to the world)... But we all know the actual REALITY that it has never been the case for millions of racialized non-White minorities in those countries, in the past and the present.... Fellow brothers like guest of japan (friend of japan) seem to be able to more easily see the message, the important interconnections, the multiple levels.... and its a hopeful sign.... I know for a fact that there are some White people out there who can understand what is actually meant by "White" and I have known some personally.... By having the humility and courage to deeply question ALL their taken-for-granted assumptions, these White people eventually understand the ACTUAL personal, social, and cultural implications that come with being perceived as "White". They realize how "White" all came to be in the first place, and realize that while they did not choose to be born into their current body, living as "White" has various consequences for themselves and for others that can NEVER be denied... The same goes for living as "Asian" etc...
Unfortunately, other White people do NOT easily wake up, or waking up is an excruciating experience of denial for them..... and their hard-headed-ness makes it an exasperating experience for others who have to listen to their repetitious brush-offs, downplays, and apologist tactics.... They keep going and going! These are the Duracell White people.... In this forum they are represented by Mr. GLENSKI, Mr. PAULH and cafe-BILE... And yes, I clearly mock cafebleu as such, since he frankly has the scariest, and most *INSIDIOUS* Anti-Asian/Anti-Japanese racial discrimination of them all!! Its utterly disgusting!! He backs himself up by using a surface reading of standard material you find in a standardized introduction to Asian Studies. Read cafe-bile's sickening hysteria over again VERY CAREFULLY everyone, and notice the condescending racist colonial discourse clearly coming out of his mealy mouth (its all there in sickening Bile & White!).... And Mr. GLENSKI, who was the one who initially brushed-off everthing as a "lengthy tirade" now challenges me, effectively lures me back (hook, line and sinker, success). He boldly dares me to make more line-by-line meticulous posts (maybe so he can brush-it-off as yet another "lengthy tirade") just to heal his bruised personal ego. Oh, its quite obvious. (Sorry Glen, but it sometimes hurts when you are forced to try and recognize your deep unexplored White-racial assumptions. Honestly, you don't have to be so personal about it. Your unexpected public announcement of being married to a Japanese woman, an obviously PERSONAL SELF-REFERENCE, is similar to Cafebleu's lame, but more pathetic "I like the Japanese" line. There's no need to candy-coat yourself as a "Japanese-lover". Its a redundant act that in no way hides the problems of your narrow attitude.)... I notice GLENSKI is trying to move this talk into the "personal arena"... Notice how he mentions his Japanese wife out of the blue, and dares me in a final ultimatum to talk about my personal life, etc.... (Sorry GLEN, but talking about personal information is hardly "professional". You *are* the self-annointed guardian of *your* version of "Professionalism" in here, aren't you??)
I think I've said enough. A few people got the positive message as we have clearly seen.... but unfortunately, some haven't, not yet anyway.... SO, if its any consolation to Glen, I think he is slightly better off than paulh and ahead of cafebleu... As for PAULH, despite his ranting and raving denial, I think he has some hope, but first he really needs a BIG dose of humility and serious soul-searching. (Hey Paul, just because you are a high-level "teacher" of Asians, don't be so offended when one of them tries to teach you something important. Maybe they're concerned for you.)... And as for Cafe-bile, he is in the worst predicament of them all. His self-enclosed bubble is made with tougher material. He uses an authoritative Western-generated knowledge-base about his imagined "Asia" to reinforce his racial delusions about all Asians. If you read his posts again he has a CLEAR unexplored Anti-Japanese sentiment! He wants to imagine Asians as naturally "more racist" (to quote his own words) and perpetually divided... His hysteria is a great example of Orientalism by the way... As cafebleu CLEARLY said, we Asians come from cultures that are "traditionally more racist". (TALK ABOUT HANGING YOURSELF THERE CAFE-BILE! ) No amount of my Malcolm-X rhetoric is going to penetrate cafe-bile's thick racist skull. Where are miracles when you need them...
To the Asian Americans, and Asians in other areas, that are thinking of coming to work in Japan or other parts of Asia. Definitely come here because this is where your Asian roots come from, this is where your Asian blood comes from.... Please come here regardless of what has been said.... The Western attitudes that have been exposed in this forum are a small example of how Western-White people think of you, think of your Asian ancestry, and think of your Asian experiences.... If you are fortunate, you will be able to work with great colleagues such as guest of japan, who you can probably tell your experiences to and not be coldly brushed off or downplayed.... BUT unfortunately, you will also meet a lot of other people such as Glenski, Paulh, and yes, even scary types like cafebleu! They will work with you, meet with you, and they might even hang out with you! Sometimes narrow minded White people will say that as an Asian American, you cannot be one of the "real Asians" of Asia... Its quite interesting... but in America, the problem is that White people see you as being too "Asian"... and now, here in Asia, White people think you are too "American".... in both cases, your Asian identity has been hijacked by White people. To think: a White person telling you who you are as an Asian! There's no easy way around it, but you keep going! Thats life! (ie: unlike Glenski we don't need to depend exclusively on reading a commerical book by David Mura, about an Asian American in Asia, because we have always been living it every day in ACTUAL REALITY, thats the living Asian American experience, its not a novel.) BUT if you are Asian American, or Asian from any English-speaking country dominated by Western people, then you probably have already developed a thicker skin to tolerate obnoxious White attitudes about Asia and Asians. After all you had to grow up with them, and live through their Western education system and society.
As Metereo said:
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I think we can all agree oreyade's main point is valid, no matter what degree we may decide. |
And as Guest of Japan said:
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I think your view has a lot of value |
As for my intensive rhetorical approach, as you can see... oh yes, it has gotten alot of attention! and bruised White racist egos... and has helped us to see where White people stand in their attitudes and problems... its a very wide range... from the more open-minded open-hearted guest of japan... all the way to the distant bottom, to the seriously deluded, pathetic cafebleu... but despite all that I have said... Guess what everyone... It is ALL really up to YOU. It always has been.
peace, out |
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Nagoyaguy
Joined: 15 May 2003 Posts: 425 Location: Aichi, Japan
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Posted: Wed Jul 30, 2003 12:35 pm Post subject: Oreyade, chotto onegai........ |
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OK, do me a favour and make it simple that even a dunderhead like me can understand.
What is the "positive message" you mentioned in your post? If possible try to limit yourself to a relatively short dissertation.
I had a good belly laugh at your visions of "asian blood" and "asian solidarity". One sure way to offend most Japanese people is to call them 'Asian'. It is akin to calling British people 'European'.
Curious on what you think of 'race mixers' such as Glenski. Are they fetishizing, doing the 'Madame Butterfly' trip? Or are their wives sell outs, foolishly demeaning their Asian brothers in a doomed attempt to assume the cultural mantle of the White oppressor? And what of the children resulting from this union?
I am not sure how much time you have spent in either Asia or in Japan in particular. Many posters here have extensive experience here, and base their opinions on those experiences. It seems IMHO that you base your opinions on.............what exactly? |
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PAULH
Joined: 28 Jan 2003 Posts: 4672 Location: Western Japan
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Posted: Wed Jul 30, 2003 12:46 pm Post subject: |
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I also forgot to mention, and this is neither here nor there, but like Glenski, my wife is Japanese, and I have two children born in this country and hold japanese passports. How do they in your estimation fit into the equation? Are they white, non-white? Hybrids? half-castes? |
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locagrl814
Joined: 04 Jun 2003 Posts: 58
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Posted: Wed Jul 30, 2003 8:08 pm Post subject: |
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Hi guys. OK here are my thoughts:
1. Oreyade, when you call people (such as PAULH, Glenksi, Cafebleu) white colonials, I think that the cycle of discrimination carries on. I know that they're not really your favorite people, but to refer to them using a derogatory term only exacerbates hatred in this world. Don't we feel offended when people of other races use terms like that to refer to us? In my opinion, if you don't like what others do to you, then don't do it to others.
2. About plastic surgery. I don't think Asians consider plastic sugery because they want to look like white "superiors". I don't see anything wrong with plastic surgery. People have different standards of beauty. If you don't like your almond-shaped eyes and would like to change it... I say do it just as long as you have the money and are psychologically/emotionally stable to accept the outcome. I also think that media has a lot to do with it. I took film classes in college. I learned that yes, people do want to look like the stars they see in the movies. Personally, I wouldn't do it because I l dont wanna be a replica of someone else. But if others want to look like the stars in Hollywood, hey go ahead! I'd tell them it's your life. I also think that people can be vain. Let's face it: there are those who are REALLY concerned about how they look. I use colored contacts from time to time not because I want to look white, but because I like colored contacts on me. I highlight my hair light brown not because I'm ashamed of having black Asian hair, but because I feel I look younger with highlighted hair. I think there are a lot of people who opt for plastic sugery because of their vanity. I think vanity is just part of human nature. Our vanity leads us to do simple changes (hair coloring, colored contacts, etc) or more drastic measures such as plastic surgery.
I almost forgot to say that I also think that plastic surgery is sometimes a cultural thing. I have a Chinese-Filipino friend who grew up in the Philippines. She told me how her Chinese friends would get this procedure done to get rid of their "chinese" eyes. My friend said her friends want to have creases on their lids. IFFF I ever get plastic surgery (which I doubt because I'm afraid of surgery), I'd probably get a liposuction on my tummy. Seriously, I think people of different races are blessed or cursed with different things. Those of African descent are blessed (or maybe cursed???) with big butts. For Filipinas, I think it's the curse of the TUMMY!!!! If I ever get tired of doing my situps everynight, I'll probably get a liposuction. heheheh. |
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locagrl814
Joined: 04 Jun 2003 Posts: 58
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Posted: Wed Jul 30, 2003 8:32 pm Post subject: |
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Oops i forgot to comment on oreyade's statement about posters including personal information in their replies. I think the purpose of saying information like that is not to announce to the whole world about your life, but to use that kind of information to backup your argument. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe Oreyade made a statement saying that Glenski could not possibly know what it's like to be Asian because he's not one of us. But how could a non-white share his experiences if we were to exclude him just because he's not Asian??? I think that non-Asians too have their "Asian" experiences either through friends or the family that they build. I think the reason why Glenski (as well as PAULH) said that he's married to a Japanese because they want to relate the experiences that their wives had. Being of different ethnicities, maybe they also wanted to relate the experiences they had together.
For a few days now, I wondered if I should have posted on this forum that my sister is married to a Japanese and her in-laws hate her even though they have not seen her yet. I asked myself over and over if that was too personal. I still dont know if that was too personal but I am certain that my purpose was to support my argument about Asians and racism.
Oreyade, I can understand your sentiments about non-Asians not knowing what it's really like to be Asian. But like I said, non-Asians can have Asian experiences as well. It's just like we'll never know what it's really like to be white or black or whatever. No two things are ever alike. But just because we're different from them doesn't mean we don't have a white, black, Asian, or whatever experience to tell.
peace. [/code] |
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PAULH
Joined: 28 Jan 2003 Posts: 4672 Location: Western Japan
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Posted: Wed Jul 30, 2003 11:52 pm Post subject: Re: TO ASIAN AMERIANS AND OTHER ASIANS IN HERE |
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oreyade wrote: |
As an Asian American, I assume you know why such minority identities like "Asian American" became necessary at all.... You've all heard, and keep on hearing, the pedantic rhetoric that America is a "free, democratic, equal" country because its guaranteed in "our great constitution and great laws" (and this extends to other White-English countries that openly advertise their Western "liberal-democracy" to the world)... |
A point of contention
oreyade seems certain that white people could not possibly know how Asians feels as they are not non-white, yet oreyade as a Asian, feels free to make assumptions about Glenski and my thoughts, be able understand the WHITE point of view, even though he is not one himself. How is this so?
Also if the above is an asian American, by Oreyade's logic he would 100% know how Asians feel, and there is no need to assume anything..
yet some how white folks with Japanese spouses, speak the language and over 30 years living in this country are just ignorant louses. DoesnT make sense.
oreyade wrote: |
Meteoreo, your important points were excellent and well taken. I'm glad you benefitted from this thread. You presented yourself as a humble and thoughtful person, and yet notice how one of them (ie: PAULH) still questioned part of your post.... Yes, there are many ways to get "the message" across as you recognize.... meteoreo, you present the humble approach that many privileged White people can easily read about, give a passing token-symapthy to |
Id like to know where I inferred I was privileged..... I have my Asian wife to feed and my Asian kids to send to school, I dont know how that makes me better or more privileged than anyone else. |
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cafebleu
Joined: 10 Feb 2003 Posts: 404
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Posted: Thu Jul 31, 2003 3:11 am Post subject: |
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Good points made by nagoyaguy, locagrl, and paul h.
What we seem to be dealing with here is somebody who seems to have no actual experience of living in Japan - unless it has been spent associating with the right wing extremists, and such racists as Shintauro Ishihara . That is the Shintarou Ishihara of the of the continuous public slurs against Asian people such as Koreans and Chinese, whether it is calling them the traditional racist `Sangokujin` or claiming that Koreans and Chinese are responsible for `atrocious crimes`.
His popularity increases, which indicates that instead of being marginalised by his hateful outpourings as tends to happen in western countries in the same situation, he is striking a responsive chord among too many Japanese. Not much evidence of warm feelings for and unity with other Asian peoples, there. But that is stating the obvious - and such obvious facts never enter the consciousness of those who live by double standards.
My Japanese friends whose Korean forbears were brought forcibly here and everyday deal with the reality that they were born in Japan but will never be accepted as such, sometimes to the point of having it flung in their face in a blatantly insulting manner, cannot believe what I have showed them in this thread. They wonder as I do why somebody is spending so much energy posting insults and falsehoods on a board such as this.
Our conclusion - laughter is the best response to such bitterness, delusion, paranoia, hysteria and hatred.
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cafebleu
Joined: 10 Feb 2003 Posts: 404
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Posted: Thu Jul 31, 2003 4:18 am Post subject: |
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Just to elaborate on the Shintarou Ishihara reference - his continual theme is the evil of white imperialism and the innocence of the Japanese. This is carried to the point where the well documented orgies of killing, rape and looting in Asia by Japanese forces during World War 2, of which China is the grimmest example, are held by him not to have happened or to have been vastly exaggerated - he has a lot in common with the neo Nazis and would no doubt refer to the `Auschwitz incident` if he were German.
Unless there is some genuine opposition to this way of thinking in Japan, lies will be actively promoted in educational textbooks and will be held as truth by younger Japanese people who never experienced World War 2. In western countries every year the Holocaust is remembered, among other reasons so that the truth will prevail against the lies of neo Nazis and other right wing extremist groups.
A disturbing parallel with the neo Nazis and other extremists is the way they hold that Germany `advanced` into other countries to `liberate` them. In Japanese textbooks the Japanese forces` extended orgy of massacres, rapes and lootings in Asia is referred to as Japan`s `advance` into Asia. Just another reason to be concerned about those Japanese such as Ishihara who blame white imperialism in order to whitewash Japan`s past and present racism.
As my Korean/Japanese friends said, anybody who would ignore such facts as well as the other lines of argument presented in this thread, and do not even attempt to answer what others have posted here, has no intention of conducting a proper debate on this forum. They are here to working out their problems by demonising certain peoples - and these problemsseem likely to be taking place in a country other than Japan.
Laughter - the best response to bitterness, delusion, paranoia, hysteria and hatred.
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Sujin
Joined: 08 Jul 2003 Posts: 3
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Posted: Thu Jul 31, 2003 5:42 am Post subject: |
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this thread has been really... informative. through these intense arguments i got a good picture of what i might experience in japan.
since i am korean, the recent posts have reminded me once again of the tension between korea and japan... and frankly the unfairness upsets me- i don't understand how a country that owes other countries some major apologies (or at least some hints of remorse) can add insult to injury by continuously carrying on such racist behavior. i really do have a heart for japanese people and even though i know there are a lot of good people who aren't arrogant racists, it's sometimes hard to dismiss the fact that such perspectives still exist and are even praised. i guess i should really learn to let it go if i do end up getting a job offer, huh? (the "if you can't change them, change yourself" attitude)
cafebleu- who is this man you're talking about? is he a politician, entertainer or what? he sounds horrible... and it's frightening to know there are people who support him.
oreyade, i agree with you on some of your points because i have experienced similar things as an Asian-American. but i strongly agree with locagirl that the path you took in your arguments will only perpetuate the cycle of racism and hurt. in the end, each individual has commited his or her own share of injustices against other individuals... i do thank you though for not candy-coating the Japanese job hunting experience cause i would have otherwise been in denial about a reality that i might have to one day face (if i do get a job).
also, thanks to everyone else cause i would have been depressed and hopeless if all i could think of was Japanese discrimination. It's inspiring to know that hard work really does make a difference.
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PAULH
Joined: 28 Jan 2003 Posts: 4672 Location: Western Japan
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Posted: Thu Jul 31, 2003 6:56 am Post subject: |
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Sujin wrote: |
cafebleu- who is this man you're talking about? is he a politician, entertainer or what? he sounds horrible... and it's frightening to know there are people who support him.
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Sujin
Shintaro Ishihara is the Governor of tokyo. The numero Uno of the municipal Tokyo government. He raised a few heckles when he said a few years ago that 'Sangokujin' (a derogatory term meaning third country people) to refer to Chinese and Koreans during world war two were to blame for all the foreign crimes in Tokyo and that the army should be called out to suppress a rebellion of such foreigners in the case of a natural disaster. I would say that Ishihara is pretty far to the right of GWB when it comes to expressing nationalistic sentiments. |
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oreyade
Joined: 16 Jul 2003 Posts: 23 Location: japan
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Posted: Fri Aug 01, 2003 12:28 am Post subject: cafebleu on cafebleu |
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cafebleu on cafebleu:
CAFEBLEU wrote: |
Asian countries have traditionally been far more racist |
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Please - you border on the pathetic when you say this. |
Agreed.
CAFEBLEU wrote: |
Asian countries have traditionally been far more racist and closed to outsiders who look different,. |
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Not much evidence of warm feelings for and unity with other Asian peoples, there. |
Agreed.
CAFEBLEU wrote: |
Asian countries have traditionally been far more racist and closed to outsiders who look different, something that persists today and something that any number of Asians such as Japanese would not deny. |
Hey cafebleu, why is cafebleu saying these things??
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They are here to working out their problems by demonising certain peoples. |
Thanks. The Cafebleu Mystery Solved.  |
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oreyade
Joined: 16 Jul 2003 Posts: 23 Location: japan
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Posted: Fri Aug 01, 2003 1:54 am Post subject: sincere final message to paul |
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Dear Paulh,
I will be as succinct as possible. Very sorry if it ends up looking like riddles, but its not meant to be that way really.
First, your children are simply your children, thats what matters most despite everything else.
As for the rest, please try to understand that it has never been about good or bad at all. Its all about "you", about "me", etc. entirely.
Please try to completely understand why we have become totally different (White, Asian, rich, poor, etc.), then, what makes us truly the same all along becomes clear.
peace. |
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PAULH
Joined: 28 Jan 2003 Posts: 4672 Location: Western Japan
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Posted: Fri Aug 01, 2003 2:28 am Post subject: Re: sincere final message to paul |
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oreyade wrote: |
Please try to completely understand why we have become totally different (White, Asian, rich, poor, etc.), then, what makes us truly the same all along becomes clear.
peace. |
Oryade
Im not a racist.
Im not a bigot.
I dont have a complex or chip on my shoulder about my ancestry or about the misdeeds of other races, Asian or WHITE. God made us that way. Deal with it.
I am NOT the same as you. |
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PAULH
Joined: 28 Jan 2003 Posts: 4672 Location: Western Japan
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Posted: Fri Aug 01, 2003 2:55 am Post subject: Re: sincere final message to paul |
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oreyade wrote: |
Please try to completely understand why we have become totally different (White, Asian, rich, poor, etc.), then, what makes us truly the same all along becomes clear.
peace. |
There are RICH Asian guys (Tiger woods (african-American Thai). Matsui and Ichiro. Michael Jordan. Rovert Kiyosaki 2Rich dad poor Dad- self made millionaire. The wiliams sisters (gals actually)
There are poor asian guys (Everyone who is not Tiger woods and Ichiro)
There are RICH White guys (Bill Gates. Ted Turner, George Bush)
There are POOR white guys. (white trash, language teachers in japan)
How am I the same as Ichiro and Tiger woods? I dont think a golf ball knows the ethnicity of the guy behind the club.
Not sure what you are trying to say here, except that guys like saddam Husseins sons were super rich, privileged and asian too, but they are now pushing up daisies in a morgue. Cant spend your millions in heaven I'm afraid. |
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