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SueH
Joined: 01 Feb 2003
Posts: 1022
Location: Northern Italy
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 Posted: Mon Dec 19, 2005 11:09 pm Post subject: Am I being cynical? |
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I notice in a recent advert for teachers in Italy that they are asking for:
"Applicants should be UK citizens not yet in Italy or UK citizens who have just arrived in Italy."
Which particular Italian laws (or taxes?) do you think they are trying to get around, or do they just want malleable newcomers? Or..?
Or am I just being cynical? |
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John ELS
Joined: 20 Sep 2005
Posts: 61
Location: Genoa, Italy
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| Posted: Thu Dec 22, 2005 2:20 pm Post subject: |
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No loopholes.
Teachers who have been working here for a while want higher rates and they usually try to steal clients.
That's all. |
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Caroline
Joined: 23 Jan 2003
Posts: 29
Location: USA
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| Posted: Thu Dec 29, 2005 6:59 pm Post subject: I would also be cynical |
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I don�t agree with John that experienced teachers, at least those who are being treated fairly by their schools, try to steal clients. I don�t and I have had plenty of chances. A good teacher can find his or her own privates by word of mouth without stealing students from the school.
I would be a bit cynical of a school that prefers teachers who don�t live in Italy. I worked for one like that for a few months and they definitely were looking for "babes in the woods". |
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John ELS
Joined: 20 Sep 2005
Posts: 61
Location: Genoa, Italy
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| Posted: Sun Jan 15, 2006 5:01 pm Post subject: Re: I would also be cynical |
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| Caroline wrote: |
A good teacher can find his or her own privates by word of mouth without stealing students from the school.
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True, but most (not all) would accept giving lessons to a student who asks to have them without the school, at least in my experience. Their thinking is, "well, they asked me"; but if the teacher accepts it is still stealing. |
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jnesta1
Joined: 31 May 2003
Posts: 96
Location: Here and there
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| Posted: Mon Jan 16, 2006 2:14 am Post subject: |
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John,
I'm a little surprised by your response, so maybe you can help me understand. Do you really believe that if a student comes to a teacher unsolicited and asks for private help and teh teacher says yes, that is stealing? I could see where it might be a question if teh teacher solicits his/her students in a classroom setting, but even thats eems questionable. Maye students need additional help outside of class? Why shouldn't they get that from a teacher they already know? Or am I missing your point entirely?
Thanks.
JN |
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John ELS
Joined: 20 Sep 2005
Posts: 61
Location: Genoa, Italy
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| Posted: Mon Jan 16, 2006 4:12 pm Post subject: Yes, it is stealing. |
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| jnesta1 wrote: |
Do you really believe that if a student comes to a teacher unsolicited and asks for private help and teh teacher says yes, that is stealing?
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Hi,
I'm afraid it is "stealing" jnesta1. In some cases illegal and in all unethical. The relationship between a teacher and school is either employee - employer or more likely freelance professional - indirect client/business partner (intermediary). In either case the teacher is not the one who makes the investment to acquire the student (direct client).
That's the way it is in any business, and that's what this is...a business.
How would you like it if you invested your time, energy and money into getting students and then one of your teachers starts giving lessons to them at half the price? Why would a student continue going to that school if his/her teacher can provide the same service at half price?
Please don't get me wrong. I've had many students "follow" me in my day and in business it is very common to recruit managers or other personnel based on the clientele that is willing to "follow" them. From a legal standpoint it's a grey area, that's why you have to be careful how you do it.
It is unethical to undercut your employer/business partner to steal students but having said that, sometimes you need to be just a little unethical when you're first starting out. Also, far too many schools follow unethical business practices so teachers are often "justified". The way schools can battle this problem is to make it in the teacher's interest not to "steal" students.
John |
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jnesta1
Joined: 31 May 2003
Posts: 96
Location: Here and there
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| Posted: Mon Jan 16, 2006 10:35 pm Post subject: |
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John,
It sounds like you've been burned, and I'm sorry for that.
Who would you recommend that a struggling student get extra help from?
jn |
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John ELS
Joined: 20 Sep 2005
Posts: 61
Location: Genoa, Italy
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| Posted: Tue Jan 17, 2006 1:03 am Post subject: |
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| jnesta1 wrote: |
John,
It sounds like you've been burned, and I'm sorry for that.
Who would you recommend that a struggling student get extra help from?
jn |
Hi,
Yes, I've been burned but don't be sorry about that...I "stole" a few students in my earlier days.
Extra help = extra lessons so extra money. Students have to pay for extra help. The question is whether they should pay the school or the teacher.
If the teacher met that student through the school (employer/business partner) then that student is the school's "turf". |
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jnesta1
Joined: 31 May 2003
Posts: 96
Location: Here and there
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| Posted: Tue Jan 17, 2006 3:02 am Post subject: |
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Sorry john you seem to angry to answer teh question.
I willno longer respond to this thread., |
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Jetgirly
Joined: 17 Jul 2004
Posts: 741
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| Posted: Tue Jan 17, 2006 2:15 pm Post subject: |
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John - Wondering if you consider it "stealing" to accept an offer from an individual student at the end of his or her corporate lessons. I have been approached by a lot of my Business English students when their company stops paying for the lessons; they always want to continue privately (or with their friends and family) but not through the school. Seeing as they were never paying, and their company will not continue to pay, is it "stealing"?
(I can't be bothered to teach extra lessons as I value my free time too much, so I have never taken my students up on their offers... but I have considered it!) |
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SueH
Joined: 01 Feb 2003
Posts: 1022
Location: Northern Italy
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| Posted: Tue Jan 17, 2006 4:16 pm Post subject: |
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I'd better butt in as I started this thread and I can see both points of view.
Jetgirly has pointed out that some situations aren't entirely clear cut and I can think of a few more in a similar vein.
John also had the grace to mention that some schools make it all too easy for teachers to justify (or self-justify) their slightly unethical practices.
My own intention, as I have some resources, is to develop my own clientele using leg-work, free introductory lesson, networking etc, and that should really improve my Italian!. As I'm slightly lazy (but put a lot into the lessons I do do) I won't want too many hours; if I wanted 9-5 I could stay in the UK. |
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John ELS
Joined: 20 Sep 2005
Posts: 61
Location: Genoa, Italy
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| Posted: Tue Jan 17, 2006 9:51 pm Post subject: |
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| Jetgirly wrote: |
I have been approached by a lot of my Business English students when their company stops paying for the lessons; they always want to continue privately (or with their friends and family) but not through the school. Seeing as they were never paying, and their company will not continue to pay, is it "stealing"?
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Hi,
Well, if the company has no intention of continuing with the school then yes, I would grab it, as long as they didn't stop because they saw a cheaper alternative.
If you think that the company might continue with the school then business ethics would say no, you can't do it (unless there is a specific agreement allowing that), technically you're supposed to wait and personally...hmm, I don't know, at the moment I probably wouldn't do it because I'm already having trouble managing my current workload. BUT, and that's a big but (not shouting), for someone in need of increasing their workload I think this situation is close to ideal.
So basically you have to ask yourself, "would I want my business partner to do that?". If the answer is no, then you should think twice. But as I mentioned above, sometimes the situation calls for being just a little unethical e.g. not on good terms with school, need more work, etc.
Anyway, that is for the company (client). Concerning family members, I would consider it ethical if you were to develop on that, so get as many family members as possible.
John |
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John ELS
Joined: 20 Sep 2005
Posts: 61
Location: Genoa, Italy
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| Posted: Tue Jan 17, 2006 9:52 pm Post subject: |
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| SueH wrote: |
My own intention, as I have some resources, is to develop my own clientele using leg-work, free introductory lesson, networking etc, and that should really improve my Italian!. As I'm slightly lazy (but put a lot into the lessons I do do) I won't want too many hours; if I wanted 9-5 I could stay in the UK. |
Great!
That's how it should be done. In the end you earn more and have more gratification. |
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SueH
Joined: 01 Feb 2003
Posts: 1022
Location: Northern Italy
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| Posted: Tue Jan 17, 2006 10:09 pm Post subject: |
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Any tips, John? (I won't be in Genova...  ) |
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John ELS
Joined: 20 Sep 2005
Posts: 61
Location: Genoa, Italy
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| Posted: Wed Jan 18, 2006 1:18 am Post subject: |
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| SueH wrote: |
| Any tips, John? (I won't be in Genova... ) |
Hi,
There's plenty of space for high quality teaching. You have to go for quality not quantity. That means you shouldn't go too low, especially if you don't want too many hours. Don't make that mistake because it's very difficult to raise prices once you've started at a certain rate.
You said it yourself: Networking. Get your name out. Go places and keep your ears open at all times. Everybody you meet is a potential student or knows somebody who needs English. Word-of-mouth, both random and concerted, is the best advertising that exists. You have to know how to market your services, basically you have to know how to sell yourself (selling yourself sounds ugly but that's what we have to do).
Where are you based?
John
Last edited by John ELS on Sun Feb 19, 2006 4:27 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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