Job Discussion Forums

James Bay · Joined: 03 Jul 2005 Posts: 22

My situation...

This has been on-going for month after month after month...Email after email after email!!! I am so fed up!

Six weeks ago I thought it was all going to end... I had been assigned to a school, signed the EMB contract and was told the school would send me a formal 'contract' to sign.I was waiting and waiting for the "formal" contract to arrive... Nothing[I am still waiting for it to arrive.]

With only a few days before the -Xmas break,I contact the school. They tell me that the Supervisor has to sign the contract!!! Why does it take 6 weeks for the supervisor to sign the contract.?The SET tells me details have to be worked out. I ask what details?I receive no reply!

I press for some action as school is closing for -Xmas! The SET tells me to send the Visa application forms anyway - 5 days before the -Xmas break.

So, I'm told that my Visa application forms were sent to immigration...However, the Supervisor has still not yet signed the contarct. I am told that the principal has signed on behalf of the Supervisor, as it is an URGENT matter,but the principasl can't sign the contract on behalf of the Supervisor for me!

I contact the principal via fax asking that before I come to HK please get the Supervisor to sign the contract,assure me of the January 3rd. start date, give me the status of the work Visa application[was it really delivered to immigration?],confirm that ssomebody has been assigned to meet me at the airport[As the SET has written "I think" I will meet you at the airport] and arrange for a speedy salary advance[2 months -Article 6:8] for me..

The principal writes back yesterday saying he is sorry about everything... not to worry....somebody will meet you at the airport, and, PROVIDED that my work Visa can be obtained prior to my departure, I would be paid from January 3.

In the meantime, I have acquired an airline ticket, as the EMB contract said a Jnuary 3 start, and as you know it is very hard to get a reservation for this time of the year at the last moment... There is a heavy money penalty if I don't travel on the ticket date.

All that being said,where does a NET go from the airport???... I don't want the YMCA, and I don't want to spend $150. US daily for some hotel at my expense.

How disorganized this whole affair is[EMB] [School]. What a mess!!!

When I was with the KORETTA Program in Korea[now called EPIC]...upon arrival we all went to the Korea Nationl University for an orientation,and from there we went to the individual schools. If the apartment wasn't ready temporary Homestay was arranged till the apartment was quickly arranged for.

When I went with the Ministry of Education to the UAE, I was met at the airport,put in a hotel and the next moring picked up and brought to my flat.

I am a certified teacher [times over] Full time education program at McGill and even a certified teacher before McGill.. I have a teaching permit from Quebec as well as from two other provinces in Canada.

With this bunch[EMB], I have been told that I don't even have a teaching certificate equal to a HK initial certificate plus I have 12 years teaching experience in the government public school system. What can I say...

Appeal their decesion... I did... waste of good time... a lot of time... more frustration...

Will things get any better... [Can they get any worse?] Stupid question!!!

Am I setting myself up for a TOTAL nightmare... The whole EMB process has been pretty bad to date?

So, to go or not to go ... That is the question???

anninhk · Joined: 08 Oct 2005 Posts: 284

I'm so sorry that you have been messed about so much and I'd like to say that it is unusual but it is pretty much par for the course!
You can enter Hong Kong and stay for 3 months, I think, without a work visa but of course you can't work! But at least you can organise things and get it done quickly if all the paper work has been completed.
I don't understand your comment about getting accommodation - you have to get your own accommodation and pay for it. The school will not do it for you! Travel from the airport to a hotel is really easy and will cost you about $120 which is worth it as you will travel door-to-door.
Only you can decide if the move is going to be worth it - we do get $12950 housing allowance now which will improve your basic salary.
Good luck whatever you decide.

James Bay · Joined: 03 Jul 2005 Posts: 22

My point about "where to go from the airport " is simply that the NET should not have to pay the initial cost of accomodation in expensive Hong Kong.There should be some "set-up" where NETS can stay free of charge for a week or so while they look for a more permanent place to live. - or the EMB should look after the initial costs of a hotel and offer support to the NET in looking for accomodation.

In my case,[and probably the case of many]I have to re-locate to HK[a totally new environment],go immediately to work,while still living out of my suitcase. Then,after school I have to tackle the task of finding a permanent place to live,get up the next day for work and probably repeat the same process the next day,till I find a permanent place to live.

All I am saying is that I would better be able to do my job,if at least, I had the "basics" covered from the onset i.e. A more permanent place to live... as opposed to the YMCA etc. etc. [expensive] hotel "crashing."

It is not uncommon for the employer to look after initial moving travel costs i.e. Associated costs of getting to and from the airport, any hotel enroute[lay over] [hotel cost while having to wait overnight for a connecting flight], associated enroute meal costs, etc. etc.

The whole accomodation thing needs to be reviewed. It seems that what you got now is the EMB throwing throwing you "into the hot water" on your arrival in HK.washing their hands clear of you,leaving you to lay out 2-3 months rent of your own money immediately, while you try and cut through the red tape of making application for a salary advance,ticket refund money[which may take God knows how long] etc. etc.

I recall on going to the UAE to teach... the employer [Ministry of Education] had the airline ticket sent to my door by courier.I didn't have to put out any of my own money. They had a travel agency look after all the travel arrangements.

I think the whole "initial' landing in Hong Kong accomodation thing[and initial associated costs] sucks!

Sure, I got to make up my own mind about if I want to go or not. Obviously, I know that!

I am just writing to simply share my experience. I have no vengence against the EMB. I just hope by sharing my experience that the EMB process can be improved.

munasa · Joined: 17 Apr 2003 Posts: 79 Location: HK

Hi James, You certainly have had a tough time, but in a way your expectations of the type of treatment/arrangements that you believe should be happening has led to some of your disappointment. It is better to accept that this is the way the EMB does things and either go with the flow, or perhaps back out.
My situation ...
I've worked overseas in several countries and had all the experiences you've had -- tickets delivered to my door, met at airport, accommodation all arranged, even food in the fridge on arrival.
The appeal of working here is that I get to do all those things myself -- it's an adventure! I knew (and you know) that the EMB doesn't provide accommodation or hold your hand through the process. IF you are not happy with this, then perhaps it isn't the right place for you. It has its advantages -- we have so much more choice about where/how to live than we have in the types of situations you and I have worked in before.
The bigger frustration comes in getting your qualifications recognised and we all have to jump through those hoops. It is harder for those of us who studied a long time ago before the days of transcripts and lots of certificates. But it can be overcome -- it's just a lot of paperwork. One of my NET friends spent 6 months getting it all sorted out, another, 3 months. And there are lots of others in the same boat.
If you are going to a government school, teacher registration is not required, so it's a bit easier once the EMB has accepted you.
Hong Kong is a great place to live and work, but it's not for everyone. We come here knowing we'll be pretty much on our own in sorting out our accommodation, insurance, tickets, etc. Most of us stayed in serviced apartments or hotels for at least a month. You don't have to spend every afternoon looking for accommodation. Settle down in one place, focus on your work and finding your way around. Then, when you have a feel for the place, decide where you want to live. I would advise you NOT to even look in the first couple of weeks. At least in January you won't have the heat and humidity to deal with as you settle in! There are some excellent real estate agents who understand what we are looking for. I recommend KoKo +852 9198 4318 who speaks English and works tirelessly. In one afternoon, she showed me half a dozen suitable apartments and I chose one of them -- my total time spent househunting: about 3 hours. And she helped with electricity, gas and phone connections.
I'm on my second contract and my work situation is not perfect, but most places have their down side. But I have enjoyed the whole experience here -- especially the independence. HK is great for me and my family, but as I said earlier, it's not for everyone. I know lots of happy NETs in HK, in spite of the difficulties we face in and out of the workplace.
Of all the overseas countries I've lived in (5 so far), this has been the easiest place to find my feet in. English is spoken in lots of places, the Internet is great resource. I found my first serviced apartment on line and paid for it before I came. Getting around by public transport is so easy... and the list goes on. This is not a hardship posting!

LV · Joined: 22 Oct 2005 Posts: 11 Location: Australia/Hong Kong

I agree the whole EMB recruitment thing needs to be streamlined and overhauled. Take heart though, I have been involved with my saga of the paper war since July. I still don't have a visa and I will be astounded if I have one by the time I leave. I have booked a ticket for the 8th because I am supposed to start teaching on the 16th and feel I will need a week to orient myself and find accomodation. I had to buy a return ticket because I did not have a visa. I am going to stay in a hotel then find a flat. Did the EMB send you a list of good hotel deals? Look on the web too there are plenty of sites that have flats and units advertised and share accomodation too. I am going to take a leap of faith and go with or without a visa. My friend got her visa after she arrived but had to do a day trip Macau to activate it. Keep all your receipts and stuff just in case so you can claim a tax deduction if it all goes south. Decisions like this are always difficult, when in doubt I toss a coin, heads I go tails I stay. Hope you make the right choice for you.

davevarga · Joined: 11 Dec 2005 Posts: 6

The EMB sounds like an absolute nightmare but it's unfortunate that you didn't read this forum before you started the process of applying for a job there. You could have saved yourself a lot of anxiety by either accepting the fact that it will be a very difficult process or just to not bother at all.
You should always try to do some research when applying for work in any country and these forums offer some very good advice as they are from people who live there.
I'm still trying to decide whether just to take the plunge and hope for the best by arriving on the 3 month visa. I've been to HK in July so at least I have a feel for the country and know how to get around. I realise this could cost a bit of money but making sure you find the right job is important to me. I'd sooner meet employers face to face rather than phone and email conversations.
You may look back at the whole situation one day and say to yourself Im glad I decided to stick it out.

shmeagain · Joined: 11 Apr 2005 Posts: 58 Location: Hong Kong

Hi James,

If they sent the visa forms in (I'm assuming you signed it and then sent it to the school for their signature?) it will take 4 weeks if everything is in order.

That's the usual time for a work visa. Maybe the EMB have a fast track system - but I've never heard of it.

There's about 6 working days left before the 3rd of Jan with all the X-mas and New Year holidays coming up (Merry Christmas everyone!).

I doubt whether you will have your visa.

Does this mean they won't let you work and won't pay you? I don't know that either (lot of help I am...) but I could speculate and say that they will set up something along the lines of a teach/observe off the books type thing. I've heard of other schools doing this - although not EMB schools.

It all depends on how experienced your school is with dealing with Immigration procedures. If they've done it before they'll know the score and work with the situation. If not, they'll probably freak out and say that you can't come within 200 metres of the school gates without that work visa.

So what should you do?

Don't know that either - sorry. What would I do knowing what I know now if I was coming over now but only when I was coming over 3 years ago...anyway, I would come over, sit tight and see what happens and fork out a few dollars of my own money and smile alot and say "No problem" or try "Momentai!" (Cantonese for 'no problem') to make them laugh and help you more (to the best of their ability - even though by other standards you have seen it won't be as great).

I would try and claim it back - but not expect much.

In the end it would maybe cost me HK$ 5000 of my own money.

So the real question for me would be: "Would I chuck it all in for 5 grand?"

My answer - definitely not.

If it's about the principle of paying while you reckon they should be paying and it's going to become a big issue that could sour your experience of HK - then I would say that there might be a few more experiences like this on the way so take that into consideration as well.

Let us know which way you decide.

James Bay · Joined: 03 Jul 2005 Posts: 22

I have no Work Visa.

My SET told me that on December 15,that the Principal told her that the Visa forms had been sent to Immigration... That is as much as I know... I have no "real" confirmation that the Visa forms have been sent.

Assuming that the school did certainly send the Visa paper work to immigration,we are all told that it takes up to 4 weeks to process the application[If there is a problem with the paper work i.e. some form I forgot to sign etc. etc. ... who knows what... but for sure, it will delay the Visa application...At any rate,if it takes 4 weeks to process the work Visa,there is no way that it is going to be ready by January 3,2006.

I have no signed contract with the school.

The Supervisor has been too busy!...[On the 14th. of November I signed and returned the EMB contract who then told me that my file would be forwarded to the chosen school]...To date, the Supervisor has been TOO BUSY to sign the contract!!!

I have a start date of January 3,2006[As per agreement with the EMB and the school{but the principal says that I can only start on January 3 provided that I have the work Visa}.

I have no work Visa and no signed contract from the school...

What should I do? What would you do? I have 6 days remaining to scheduled departure...

[This may sound like some pathetic game, but sadly, it is a real predicament that I am finding myself in!!!]

munasa · Joined: 17 Apr 2003 Posts: 79 Location: HK

Hi James,
Without a signed contract, the visa application is incomplete. Didn't you say the Principal had signed on behalf of the Supervisor? If so, then you do have a signed contract of sorts. The Supervisor is not necessarily someone close at hand -- it is some kind of honorary role and they all have "real" jobs somewhere else. Mine is a university lecturer, working across the border in China! We wait for her signature sometimes, too.
From where you are, this all sounds strange, bizaar, so disorganised. But it's par for the course in HK. It looks as if you do really have a job and you could come before January 3. Personally, no matter what, I would NOT work without the proper visa in my passport. So, if you are here before your visa, decide what you will do. I've heard horror stories of teachers working before they had their visas and then not being able to be paid. Once you have your visa, you can somehow get it activated here in HK, but it's not easily done, so most people go over to Macau (eg for dinner), then come back in again -- which can be a lot of fun. The visa is in the form of an entry visa which is why you have to leave and come back again. Funny system, yes?
If you have enough money to support yourself, why not come and spend some time exploring HK, perhaps looking at possible places to live, etc, while you wait for your visa?
In HK, the visa process usually takes 3 to 4 weeks. So from December 15, it could take until January 6 to 20th, allowing for public holidays.
It's your call really. How comfortable do you feel about coming and not working for two to three weeks? If you could do that, you would find plenty to see and do while you wait. It could be really enjoyable and helpful in that when you finally start work, you will know HK quite well.

James Bay · Joined: 03 Jul 2005 Posts: 22

Thank you Munsa... If you please go back and read my earlier post you would see that I wrote the principal said he signed for the Supervisor and sent the application forms to immigration ... BUT, he could not sign MY contract on behalf of the Supervisor... Strange! but that is what he wrote to me...

As for coming and exploring HK[for several weeks] while I wait for the Visa that is a nice idea... but, that may be too costly for me at this point ...

The SET wrote me today saying she still does not have the Visa but would be sending it to me before my departureand not to worry...

I pointed out to her in an email that I just sent - that today is December 23. The -Xmas week-end is starting and nothing will be open till at least December 28.

My flight leaves on December 29. So, I told her that even if she had the Visa today, she would not be able to get it to me for my December 29 departure.

I asked her what I should do... Wait here or in HK for the Visa???

The saga[plot]thickens some, as the SET was very nice to phone me briefly last night[I assume maybe at her own expense] and, if I understood her English well enough, she has offered me to live in a flat [for a while] belonging to her uncle, who apparently has purchased another flat...

So, now I have to go and explore that graet offer with her further to see if there are electrical services,gas,etc, etc still connected...

At 4 in the moring when she called I was not 100% alert to put many questions to her...

So,I "might consider" going on Dec. 29 as per plan... but NOT working till I get the Visa... but, now, I have to confirm with the school that this is an acceptable idea for them as well...

At any rate... Chin up!!! Onward!!!

munasa · Joined: 17 Apr 2003 Posts: 79 Location: HK

Hi James,
The Immigration Dept will probably only be closed on the 26th, but I wonder how your SET can guarantee that your visa can be sent to you before your departure. I'd be wanting them to keep it here for you to pick up after you arrive to be sure you don't end up here and your visa ends up in Canada -- it's happened to others.
Earlier you mentioned the heavy $$$ penalty if you change your airline booking -- how does this impact on your decision-making?
Also, I understand that the airlines in Canada, or maybe it's just one airline in Canada, won't allow you to fly to HK on a one-way ticket if you don't have a visa in your passport. Did you keep a copy of your contract? Maybe you could phone the airline and ask about their policy and if they'd accept your contract instead of a visa.
These hassles you are facing are similar to what most NETs face and you can't change how things are done here. Why did you choose Hong Kong? In spite of all these difficulties, it can still be a worthwhile experience if you really want to be in Hong Kong.
It seems to me that you are panicking (and that's not a criticism) and I wonder if you are ready to come here without the support structures that were provided by your previous employers.
As I said earlier, I've found settling into HK, finding my way around, and making all my own arrangements to be relatively easy. This is easiest place out of all the places I've lived in -- and I don't think I need all that extra support that I've had on other occasions.
Most NETs are on holiday now and have left HK, but you could ask some questions on www.pnets.org or on a Yahoo group, http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HKNEST -- these are two discussion groups run by and for NETs.

anninhk · Joined: 08 Oct 2005 Posts: 284

James, I understand your worries but you also have to realise that you are coming at the beginning of the second term. Most schools start back on 3rd December - hence your SET saying that she might be able to meet you as she will probably be working.
When you come in August you have 2 weeks to prepare for the opening of school and during that time the EMB do organise orientation of a sort and usually send lists of hotels offering reasonable accommodation on a monthly basis to help you decide where to live. You have to sign a 2 year contract when you take on an apartment and you can't break it for 13 months without losing the two months deposit that you pay so make sure where you live is a place you are happy in before you make any decisions.
I really think you should make sure you have enough funds to cover at least 2 months of living in HK as it takes time to get the money situation in place. The schools have to claim the money from the EMB and need their say so before you can get any payments. Even if you stay in a hotel for a month you have to pay a bond equivalent of one months rent. I'm not sure the situation if you stay at a YMCA.
I didn't have a work visa when I arrived but I did have a signed contract and the school had applied for the visa. When I got here the school took me to Immigration immediately and then I had to give them a letter explaining why I had come without it and was given the visa without leaving the country.
Are you a primary NET? Has your school had a NET before?
As has been suggested before use the alternative websites. I'm sure there will be another NET at a school nearby who will be willing to help you settle in.

Horizontal Hero · Posted: Sun Dec 25, 2005 7:24 pm Post subject:

James, it took me a year to start breaking even in HK. The salary advance actually puts you in effective debt. My advice, chose low cost housing, if at all possible. In my second year I've moved to a village house, about 55 mins from work - and cut my rent in half. Damn tiring though!

I didn't get picked up at the airport either! I caught a bus into Tsim Sha Tsui, put $100 in a telephone card machine, and got no card! That was rather prophetic for my first year in HK!

Enjoy the ride, but release your expectations about being pampered, or even being treated reasonably humanely. Just come out from your corner with your guard up, and ready to take all punches. Those drones on the subway in HK don't just look like they have just been through 12 rounds with Ali - they have a lifetime of taking hits. Ask for what you want and need, and don't let them push you around. I know a teacher who arrived here and was told he was working Saturdays. His panel chair had worked out a wonderful Saturday program for him. He flatly told her he wasn't working Saturdays, thanks anyway. She broke down in tears! But he got his way. Be firm! But be just as kind, and even more respectful to your hosts. People skills are essential in Chinese society.

Welcome to the machine!

James Bay · Joined: 03 Jul 2005 Posts: 22

Horizionalhero,

I read your advice...Thank you dearly... It sounds like real good advice from a man who has been through the ropes... down the back alleys and still has a lot of fight in him, and,indeed, a lot more mountains to climb...

I will take heed and keep my pencil sharp... Merry -Xmas...

Pieface · Joined: 18 Jun 2004 Posts: 42

So did you decide to come in the end?
It's possibly too late to offer any advice...all I will say is that I hope you brought enough cash over to see you through the first few weeks. I was informed that my flight would be refunded 'upon arrival' (it took 5 weeks) and that i could apply for a salary advance (which I did - it took 6 weeks to come through, by which time I was utterly broke and hungry!)
BUT, after the initial teething problems, you'll find that Hong Kong is a great place to live, so...enjoy!