Job Discussion Forums

[Guy Courchesne]

The first strikes me as odd. Can't find the context in which to use it. You're a master at putting these up Mr. Jones...

The others all work. It's simply a matter of establishing likelihood and when. Can you explain that first one though?

[ls650]

Remember, too, that these sentences would be spoken with contractions and reductions by a native speaker.
No one would actually say "If you would only think about it a little, you will see that the original quote is quite grammatical."
But "If you'd only think about it a little, you'll see that the original quote's quite grammatical. " sounds perfectly natural to me.

[Stephen Jones]

Let's give you a few more examples of the kind of construction.

If he will drive too fast, sooner or later he'll have an accident.
If you will insist on walking down the street in a bikini, you can't complain about wolf-whistles.
If you won't listen to me, don't blame me when it all goes wrong.

Note that you must have contrastive stress on the will in all these cases. Note that the second example fof this trio is ungrammatical:

If you will sleep around, at least use a condom.
*If you'll sleep around, at least use a condom.
If you sleep around, at least use a condom.

What difference does the 'will' make? I would suggest it implies disapproval on the part of the speaker, and wilfull waywardness on behalf of the subject.

[Guy Courchesne]

Makes sense, though I don't use 'will' in the condition myself. 'Won't' I would use, and for that, 'will' logically must work as well.

My preference would be 'If he drives too fast, sooner or later he'll have an accident'. Think there's a British/American difference there?

Our poor students...

[Stephen Jones]

I think what is uncommon in this case is to have a second part to the sentence. We normally leave it hanging:

"Well, if you will hang out in those kind of places,......."

This is a particular example that can be taught as an idiom, as can if you'd only. However the use of the past for an open condition is extremely common. I have come round to the conclusion that the standard way of teaching conditionals is a disaster, and it is that that confuses the students. If we stuck to explaining the difference between open and remote conditonal clauses, then we wouldn't have to take everything back later on, and tell them there are such things as mixed condtionals, which break all the rules we have just drilled into them. It is not the conditionals that are mixed up, it is our way of explaining them, and the students after they have suffered it.

[Guy Courchesne]

Agreed. Spanish conditionals, though, offer up an easy shortcut. I still wouldn't use 'will' though...I'm sure it's a Brit/Yank thing...help me here Stephen...you're British, correct?

[Stephen Jones]

The use of 'will' in this sense conveys a special nuance. As I said, it must carry the stress and you can't use the contracted form.

I really don't know if Americans use it in the same sense. They certainly do as a main verb as you can see in this post by a long-term British US resident
http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/000138.html

The following quote Graduates, if you will indulge me for a moment, let me paint a picture of what it's like out there. comes from a certain Will Ferrell, giving the Harvard Commencement Speech in 2003.
http://www.commencement.harvard.edu/2003/ferrell.html

This example comes from an American Christian website, http://www.christiananswers.net/gospel/goingtoheaven.html
If you will listen, your own conscience will tell you that you are certainly a law breaker.

Also we have I Will if You Will, is an organization dedicated to bringing low cost solar photovoltaic electricity to the world.
http://manathreads.org/i_will_if_you_will

'Nuff for now.

[Stephen Jones]

The BBC World site does have a whole lot of stuff on learning English, including this topic.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/worldservice/learningenglish/grammar/learnit/learnitv315.shtml
FRankly, though I find that the gentlemen who gives the answers in general makes a right royal mess of it, and would not recommend the site at all.

[Chasgul]

'If you WILL go to such places...'

I understand this in the sense that your friend/relation/parent/colleague is expressing their extreme disapproval of where you were and telling you that you get no sympathy for the nasty things that happened to you. It's the nastier way of saying 'I told you so' with the added edge that 'I didn't tell you so because I thought that it was sooo obvious that even you would have understood.'

E.g: You come into the kitchen regretting that you are alive on Monday morning, you have classes to teach. You make the usual comment along the lines of: 'Arrgh, how I'm gonna teach is beyond me....' The other person in the room says: 'If you WILL go out on Sunday night...'

Does that help?

[khmerhit]

if you will keep floggin this thread, it will surely collapse!