Job Discussion Forums

[Alan Warner]

In light of the latest news coming out of Spain will we all need passports to go to Barcelona?

Barcelona is in Catalu�a which from the news has now almost banned the Spanish language there. The news article I read says that everyone there now seems to be obligated to speak/learn Catalan. Schools, police hospitals etc. etc. have all been told that everything the say or write now has to be in Catalan. School children are now taught in Catalan and have to learn Spanish as a second language. Most TV is also in Catalan.

Plus Mr. Bean (aka. President Zapatero) is having a fair bit of trouble getting the Catalans to even agree to his new Catalu�a Statute which appears to almost turn Catalu�a into a near idependent state.

I was planning on going to Barcelona as part of my travels and wish to continue my Spanish. It seems that Barcelona is probably not the best place to go as Spanish seems to be being frowned upon there and given the political situation - is it safe?

Madrid seems to be extremely popular, apparantly it was the most visited Spanish city last year and it seems to have the most jobs.

Any thoughts, advice, other places to go in Spain to get work and learn Spanish rather than Catalan?

[Iam]

My advice is don't worry about it.

I've been living in Barcelona for a month now, or all I've noticed is the odd bit of graffiti re Bcn not being Spain, & some newspaper headlines I've barely understood.

'Course, my Spanish is poor atm anyway, & what you've posted comes as news to me.

However, I can't see Catalonia becoming independent to the point where they start having their own passport/visa requirements. Plus, I think they'd be mad (if they did gain that degree of independence) to be outside the EU - I'm an EOU citizen.

Plus, there are an aweful lot of non-Catalan Spaniards, & a large number of foreign nationals, living in Spain.

If they tried to evict all the non-Catalans the place would collapse, economically, & in other ways too, I suspect.

As regards whether it's safe ... if you mean from a personal security standpoint, then absolutely yes. Like any city, there are places you'd not go late at night (I suppose), but I've been wandering about the place alone on foot regularly, never a moment's concern, & no discourtesy from anyone I've met here regarding being a "foreign invader"

I've been told tho, that the Catalans are "closed in" in relations with non-Catalans (Spaniards included). Not seen it myself ... but then, only been here a month, not had a great deal to do with the locals.

Iam.

[CharlesTESOL]

Catalonia is not trying to become independent. There is an effort right now for increased autonomy, not for separation. Catalonia is not the only region pushing for more autonomy. A very vocal minority agitates for Catalan independence but surveys and polls show most Catalans do not want that. They want more autonomy, most importantly they want more of their tax money to stay in Catalonia.

The bid for more autonomy has nothing to do with obligating people to speak Catalan. Under the new proposal Catalonia will remain officially bi-lingual -- Catalan and Spanish. Public school classes have been taught in Catalan for years, but students are required to be fluent in Spanish, too. There are private schools where Spanish is the main language of instruction. Many children in Spain go to private schools, especially Catholic schools that receive government money.

I've been living in Spain about six years, about four of those in Barcelona. I do not speak Catalan. No one has ever been rude to me or refused to speak Spanish to me. In other words, I get around fine with only Spanish -- and of course there are more than a few Catalans who speak English, too.

Among the reasons Catalans will never let Spanish go is the fact that there is a large Spanish language instruction industry here. Local universities, language academies, exchange programs, etc. offer Spanish courses to thousands of people each year. Spanish/English voluntary language exchanges, called intercambios, are popular here, too. Of course one can study Catalan here, but it is a comparatively small industry.

Television channels TV1, La2, Antenna3, Cuatro4 and TELE5 all broadcast in Spanish. In Barcelona the local stations CityTV, TV3, 33, BCNTV broadcast mostly in Catalan. Smaller cities in Catalonia usually have a station or stations that broadcast mostly in Catalan. Ratings constantly show both Spanish language programs and Catalan programs are popular in Catalonia.

Almost all cinemas offer films in Spanish only. A vast majority of local cinemas have English language (and other "foreign") movies dubbed into Spanish. The few cinemas that offer movies in their original language almost always have Spanish subtitles, not Catalan.

Most radio station DJs speak in Catalan although most of the music is Spanish or English. 99fm is a station that only plays Spanish music and its DJs speak Spanish most of the time.

The major newspaper here, La Vanguardia, is published in Spanish only. The second most popular local paper is El Periodico, which offers readers a choice between a Catalan edition and a Spanish edition. The national paper, El Pais, is also popular here. The Catalan only newspapers do not seem to sell well. AVUI has had to get government money at times in order to be able to continue publishing.

Signage on buses, in the metro, on trains, at the airport, etc. is in Catalan, Spanish and English.

Buena suerte,

[JimRoss]

The Catalu�a thing is quite amusing. Hot off the TV is the following:

There are now some cases being brought to bear on the local authorities by irate Spanish speaking parents because they are refusing to teach their children in Spanish.

According to the news article, almost 50% of school children that come from Spanish speaking families flunk their exams because they are all written in Catalan.

The news article then cut to someone that said in Spanish (translated), "Well they are living in Catalu�a, if they want to find work here they must learn to speak our language." This I know to be true because to get a decent job in Catalu�a you must be able to speak Catalan. EFL teachers excluded.

The camera also panned around a few school entrance gates, all of the boards showing the school board, school names etc. were in Catalan, not even bi-lingual Catalan/Spanish.

I actually was under the impression that Catalu�a was in Spain. Glad I live in Spain rather than Catalu�a

[Moore]

I never could stand people who want to deliberately make themselve different: ten years after the fall of the Berlin wall which divided two halves of the same people, these idiots are trying to do the same thing politically and linguistically.
All day long I teach people a language which will bring them closer and make understanding possible between the maximum number of people and these people are doing exaclty the opposite. There's even talk of making French the second language, thus giving their poor kids no chance at all in the mighty competition for globalised jobs which awaits them.

[darkside1]

I lived in Barcelona in the 1990s and studied both Spanish and Catalan and while it is true that the state education system in Catalunya is immersed in Catalan there is a very good reason for that.

Catalan was banned in public places, schools and universities for nearly 40 years under the Franco dictatorship. Literature, theatre and music in Catalan were also prohibited (as was any kind of political opposition- the regime was still garotting its opponents in the early 1970s). One of the reasons that FC Barcelona became such a big symbol of Catalunya is that people could actually speak the language in the stadium, one of the few places they could do so. So it's hardly a case of a group showing off that it is 'different' for the sake of it.

Since Catalan is a minority language that faces unequal competition from Spanish (a global language) it is understandable that the Generalitat (regional government) subsidies media and education in Catalan. Granted that will upset a minority whose first language is Spanish, but my view is it's a price worth paying to redress the balance of decades of official neglect (maybe the fact that I am Scottish makes me biased against centralisation and identify with the Catalans).

At any rate, as a tourist or resident in Barcelona (it may be different in a small village in the sticks) you will have few problems in using Spanish as a lingua franca.

[Moore]

The idea of using a language as some sort of political statment is absurd and frankly backward. OK, so Catalan is a symbol of resistance and solidarity against the Castellano-speaking Franco system, but Franco is DEAD! It's over, time to move on and get into the twenty-first century.

Seven years ago I was teaching kids at a Thai school, not a particularly expensive one, where the two FIRST languages were English and Thai, and then the two second languages were Japanese and Chinese: by the age of sixteen when they left they were all able to speak all of them fluently. These kids I was teaching are now 16 years old, and will be competing with kids from Europe in about six years time for jobs in an ever more globalised market, but these monkeys in Catalonia are holding back their kids and blowing their future for the sake of making some crashingly small historic point. There is even talk of them teaching French as a second language which is just plain ridiculous.

Many people misguidedly try to express their individuality and identity through superficial decorations such as clothing, language etc. forming themselves a "secret private club", instead of actually saying or doing something that will impress people. There are too many of these petty minded little groups around the world: it's the twenty-first century everybody: it's the time we should be breaking down the last barriers that separate us as the human race, not trying to build new ones.

[darkside1]

IMHO, and without wishing to have a dig at anyone, 'monkeys' is a term best avoided.

What happened when the Soviet Union broke up 15 years ago? Did the Estonians and the other Baltic states decide to keep Russian as their main language- I doubt it.

The fact is without government support minority languages would be completely marginalised (Gaelic in the Western Highlands of Scotland, for example). It's not a question of 'revenge' for past wrongs (real or imagined) but it is an argument about minority rights. As I understand it the law as it stands in Catalunya provides for students and teachers to express themselves in the language of their choice, castellano or catalan.

Incidentally, the fact that Catalans have largely avoided the levels of political violence present in other parts of Europe with similar political situations (e.g. Euskadi, N. Ireland) is a big point in their favour that shows political maturity.

I'll tell you an anecdote that hopefully illustrates what I mean by my last comment. It was the late 1990s and I was watching a Barca- Real Madrid match in an Irish pub in uptown Barcelona. The pub was full of locals, Barca fans, plus a few Barca- supporting giris like myself and my mates. There was one loud and proud Madrid fan in the middle of the pub wearing a strip and shouting all sorts of abuse at the telly. Madrid won (2-1 I seem to remember, it was a game at the Bernabeu), but no-one had a go at him and in fact a few people shook his hand at full- time (some of his banter was genuinely funny).

What would have happened if the same scene had been re-enacted in any British city?

[Moore]

I still don't get it. It's wildly Utopian, but the ideal must surely one day we have to aim to be united as a world people and have the same passport, same democracy, same currency, and even the same language: artificial differences only end up leading to absurd disputes which cause endless conflicts instead of us getting on with tackling the world issues that really need dealing with.
Diversity and individuality should come from a persons opinions and actions, not from the superficiality of clothing or language.

[wildchild]

JimRoss says

[Moore]

Quote: "Wouldn't the act of choosing not to wear what everyone else is wearing be an...action? Wouldn't the act of choosing to call it murder instead of liberation be an...action?" -no. The hippies I've most respected were those who dressed anonymously with short hair, jeans, t-shirt and trainers, who expressed their ides through words and actions and not by posing in dreadlocks, tie-dyed everything and a "Free Bhutan" t-shirt. It's too easy to put on a costume that says things about you instead of you saying it yourself.

Getting back on topic, my point is that a few very noisy Catalans are jeopardising their childrens future for the sake of petty political point-scoring. Catalonia is part of Spain and will never be allowed to separate: it's just not going to happen. They fail to see that they are part of a greater Europe anyway, that the future is global and isolating yourself linguistically is pointless and downright irresponsible.

I'm not saying we should all speak English, but every child in the world must speak it at least as a second language if they are to have any chance in the extremely competitive employment market of the coming years. Proposing that their kids should learn Catalan first, then French as a second language is just absurd. Teaching them Spanish as a first language then English as a second language will at least give them a chance.

[wildchild]

Wilderson says

[Moore]

You miss my point: what annoys me is when people are different for the sake of being different and not for any particularly good reason. Picasso is the perfect example: his work was different for a reason, he pioneered cubism, only to be aped later by mediocre imitators who were just being "different" for the sake of it. In terms of clothing Picasso is again a good example: he dressed simply, in simple trousers, cropped hair, the most flashy item being the occasional Breton shirt and produced superb work, as opposed to the blatant "I'm-the-big-artist"-ness of Dali's appearance, a man who produced some deeply vacuous works.

I never proposed that anyone should abandon the values of their parents, culture or family, but just that people make themselves more accessible so they can share whatever they have with the rest of us and also take on ideas from outside: surely making a level playing field for everyone does not imply losing out on all individuality or character: just giving everyone a fair crack of the whip.

As an English teacher I once had to teach French paras: an idea that wasn't too attractive to me as a pacifist, but I also understood that their role was to be peacekeepers (in Kosovo at the time): I hoped that they might be able to resolve tense situations more easily verbally instead of forcefully nd surely this is what having a common language is all about: the possibility of sharing common ideas- the more you can find similarities in people then the harder it is to drop a bomb on them: the Nazis objectified the Jews and this allowed normal people to take part in the extermination of what they had been taught to see as animals and not humans.

It would not hurt the Catalan people to speak Spanish and English as a second language: if they truly have an interesting and strong culture then it will flourish and not vanish. Being different is good. Being an individual is good. But being different in certain ways for the sake of it and shooting yourself (or rather your kids) in the foot is just ridiculous.

[wildchild]

If I may highlight a few contradictions which I will leave with minimal commentary for I believe that they are quite obvious:

Moore says

[Moore]

Wilderson: I think if you were to look at the message of what I am trying to express: that artificial barriers and divisions lessen us as human beings, cause conflict (the recent "my prophet is better than your prophet" style stuff for example), and perhaps not trying to score cheap philosophical points then you might learn something. I propose agreeing to disagree on this one in the interests of not going a million miles off topic and not boring the other posters senseless.