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buddhaboyjp
Joined: 24 Jan 2006
Posts: 75
Location: Dai Po, Tai Wo
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 Posted: Wed Jan 25, 2006 1:51 pm Post subject: Dowry in HK |
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Greetings,
Currently living in Japan for the past 14 yrs, and making the move to HK in 2007.
My Chinese HK fiancee has hit me over the head with something that may be a first time for most Western people: Dowry.
I had no idea this was practiced by the Chinese, let alone the HK Chinese.
Her mother told her that I can choose how much to pay, as they do not want to give the impression that they are "selling" their daughter.
If you have lived in Japan, you may know that they nickel and dime you to hell and back, and now I am being asked to pay this dowry.
I just have no idea how much to pay. Is my love for her going to be measured by how much I pay the parents?
How about 2 goats, 3 pigs and 8 chickens? |
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once again
Joined: 27 Jan 2003
Posts: 815
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| Posted: Wed Jan 25, 2006 2:43 pm Post subject: |
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I was not asked to pay. I do know of other cases as well where this has happened, but from what my wife tells me it is now no longer common. More common would be that the wedding reception, which you are expected to pay for, would generate income in the form of red packet gifts of money from the guests (the equivalant of wedding presents). There would be an agreement about a split of the proceeds from this. It was all to mercenary for me, so I just flat out refused all of it. I have been happily married for eight years now, so there has been no lasting fall out from it..lol From what I gather, traditionally it was to compensate the family for the loss of a daughter who would then go to live with the husbands family and have her first loyalties there.
I think it can still be a complicated issue where it is requested. It depends on your wife's attitude towards it all. Does she support the idea? Let us know how the story unfolds. As for an actual figure, I can offer no real number. It may be that the tradition and sentiment is more important to the parents than the actual figure. |
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buddhaboyjp
Joined: 24 Jan 2006
Posts: 75
Location: Dai Po, Tai Wo
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| Posted: Wed Jan 25, 2006 3:39 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks a bunch for your reply.
I am divorced from a Japanese, and there was no such thing as this dowry business.
My fiancee lives with parents and supports them as they are retired and all.
She is in the Kowloon district ( I have not been to HK as of yet) and gives the impression that it is govt. subsidised or somthing to that affect.
They seem nice enough, but I would rather use the money in some other productive means. She still has 3 sisters and 1 brother all helping out.
This could be a touchy subject. I don't want to insult her or lose face, but I just don't like this kind of pressure. Maybe I should remind her of the American tradition where the brides father pays for the ceremony?
Fair is fair?
Anyways, glad to here that you are still married and thanks, especially the bottom part about it being sentimental and tradition.
Will keep you posted. |
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Roger
Joined: 19 Jan 2003
Posts: 9138
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| Posted: Sat Jan 28, 2006 1:12 pm Post subject: |
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May I suggest to you to ask her to agree to a written prenuptial agreement about money matters much like what is common in the U.S.A. - in case of a divorce you won't have to accept any liability?
This might be the acid test for your marriage intentions, of course, but it's worthwhile! |
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buddhaboyjp
Joined: 24 Jan 2006
Posts: 75
Location: Dai Po, Tai Wo
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| Posted: Mon Jan 30, 2006 1:39 am Post subject: |
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| Roger wrote: |
May I suggest to you to ask her to agree to a written prenuptial agreement about money matters much like what is common in the U.S.A. - in case of a divorce you won't have to accept any liability?
This might be the acid test for your marriage intentions, of course, but it's worthwhile! |
Thanks, I shall think this over seriously. Here is some more information I found and will C/P here:
"In Chinese culture there is no engagement ceremony. The engagement of a couple becomes official at the time the dowry is given by the groom's family to the bride's family. This may take place from two weeks up to three months before the wedding. The dates for the engagement and wedding are set according to the lunar calendar. The almanac explains which days are auspicious, and dates will be chosen accordingly. The value of the dowry, of course, depends mainly upon how much the groom can afford.
The bride's mother represents her family in making a list of things she expects the dowry to contain, and sends it to the groom's family. If the groom's family feels it cannot fulfill the expectations, they will bargain with the bride's family to get the list down to a reasonable amount. The list will include expensive food items, such as dried mushrooms, dried abalone, dried scallops, dried shrimp, live chickens, pig's feet, wine, candies, fruits, and many other items.
There are two things the list must include. One is a pair of lotus roots, tied together with red string. The Cantonese word for lotus lin ngau, sounds like the word for connect, lin, and so the lotus roots tied together symbolise a lasting relationship. The other is four coconuts with the character meaning happiness written on them. The Cantonese words for coconut, yeah tchee, sound like the words for grandfather, yeah, and son, tchee, and symbolise that many generations will come from this union. The family will also ask for a number of gift cards for cakes (both Western and Chinese) and roast meats to pass out to their friends as a means of celebrating and announcing the wedding of their daughter. Some gold and money will also be requested. Shoes, or money to buy shoes, will be requested for the bride's younger, unmarried brothers. Also, pants, or money to buy pants, will be requested for older unmarried brothers and sisters of the bride. The items are delivered to the bride's home by a servant or relative of the groom, never by the groom's parents. The groom's family will make a celebration of this event, by asking relatives to come help them pack the items and get them ready to send. When the goods are delivered to the bride's family, the bride's family will return a portion of the goods to the groom's family, as a polite way of showing that they have been too generous, and need not have sent so much. Also, the bride's family will send two lucky money envelopes for the groom. One is for buying a suit, and the other for buying shoes.
The bride's family will then have a big dinner and invite their relatives and close friends. The groom's family will not be invited to this dinner.
It is the responsibility of the groom to provide housing for himself and his new bride. However, the bride's family will provide all the household goods for the new couple, except for the bed. The groom must buy the bed -- if the bride's parents buy the bed it symbolises that nobody wants the daughter, and they had to buy it to convince someone to take her. The bride's parents will also give jewellery to her as a wedding gift. The amount they give depends on their financial situation, but even the poorest will do their best to give at least a small piece of gold jewellery to their daughter. Gold and precious stones will last forever, so it felt that such a gift must be given."
This was all specifically about Cantonese HK culture. I will have her read this over and get her opinion. Cheers. |
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Mytime
Joined: 17 Jan 2006
Posts: 173
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| Posted: Mon Jan 30, 2006 3:47 am Post subject: |
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Thanks, I shall think this over seriously. Here is some more information I found and will C/P here:
"In Chinese culture there is no engagement ceremony. The engagement of a couple becomes official at the time the dowry is given by the groom's family to the bride's family. This may take place from two weeks up to three months before the wedding. The dates for the engagement and wedding are set according to the lunar calendar. The almanac explains which days are auspicious, and dates will be chosen accordingly. The value of the dowry, of course, depends mainly upon how much the groom can afford.
The bride's mother represents her family in making a list of things she expects the dowry to contain, and sends it to the groom's family. If the groom's family feels it cannot fulfill the expectations, they will bargain with the bride's family to get the list down to a reasonable amount. The list will include expensive food items, such as dried mushrooms, dried abalone, dried scallops, dried shrimp, live chickens, pig's feet, wine, candies, fruits, and many other items.
There are two things the list must include. One is a pair of lotus roots, tied together with red string. The Cantonese word for lotus lin ngau, sounds like the word for connect, lin, and so the lotus roots tied together symbolise a lasting relationship. The other is four coconuts with the character meaning happiness written on them. The Cantonese words for coconut, yeah tchee, sound like the words for grandfather, yeah, and son, tchee, and symbolise that many generations will come from this union. The family will also ask for a number of gift cards for cakes (both Western and Chinese) and roast meats to pass out to their friends as a means of celebrating and announcing the wedding of their daughter. Some gold and money will also be requested. Shoes, or money to buy shoes, will be requested for the bride's younger, unmarried brothers. Also, pants, or money to buy pants, will be requested for older unmarried brothers and sisters of the bride. The items are delivered to the bride's home by a servant or relative of the groom, never by the groom's parents. The groom's family will make a celebration of this event, by asking relatives to come help them pack the items and get them ready to send. When the goods are delivered to the bride's family, the bride's family will return a portion of the goods to the groom's family, as a polite way of showing that they have been too generous, and need not have sent so much. Also, the bride's family will send two lucky money envelopes for the groom. One is for buying a suit, and the other for buying shoes.
The bride's family will then have a big dinner and invite their relatives and close friends. The groom's family will not be invited to this dinner.
It is the responsibility of the groom to provide housing for himself and his new bride. However, the bride's family will provide all the household goods for the new couple, except for the bed. The groom must buy the bed -- if the bride's parents buy the bed it symbolises that nobody wants the daughter, and they had to buy it to convince someone to take her. The bride's parents will also give jewellery to her as a wedding gift. The amount they give depends on their financial situation, but even the poorest will do their best to give at least a small piece of gold jewellery to their daughter. Gold and precious stones will last forever, so it felt that such a gift must be given."
This was all specifically about Cantonese HK culture. I will have her read this over and get her opinion. Cheers. |
I think that's old hat, traditional from days gone by.
| Quote: |
| How about 2 goats, 3 pigs and 8 chickens? |
Don't forget the sack of rice and some fish, maybe a water buffalo. |
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once again
Joined: 27 Jan 2003
Posts: 815
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| Posted: Mon Jan 30, 2006 4:25 am Post subject: |
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| In the interests of further research, I will ask my Chinese co teachers at school when we return afer the break and see how many of them followed, will follow the traditions. I will let you know in a couple of days..HAPPY NEW YEAR |
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Roger
Joined: 19 Jan 2003
Posts: 9138
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| Posted: Mon Jan 30, 2006 6:01 am Post subject: |
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I had two HK Chinese girlfriends over the years, but I was never badgered and pushed into handing over a dowry, least of all a dowry of the kind described above.
I was, however, subjected to a rigorous examination with a view of finding out whether I was "suitable" for the daughter in question; I passed that exam...
I took part in a number of weddings as a guest; money is of the uppermost consideration in China in general and in HK in particular. Wedding guests didn't bring gifts such as household utensils but had to contribute to the banquet's costs; in one case my girlfriend (the one whose family found me suitable) told me guests had to hand over HK$ 400 in a red packet. The meal was nothing special but nevertheless rather expensive due to the place: a posh restaurant.
My own wedding (not with the above girl) was a lacklustre affair: just walk into the registrar's office and sign documents, then it was all over. Up to you to prolong the party if you feel like!
In HK, brides typically want a WESTERN-STYLE wedding because nit is so much more romantic! They want to wear a bridal dress (look around even in mainland cities you will find specialised shops that rent them out for a hefty price). In HK, you then go to the Cityhall to make a solemn oath, then you celebrate with your extended family and friends!
Weddings and burials are some of the most expensive affairs in the lives of Chinese! Lots of ostentation and prestige are involved! |
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buddhaboyjp
Joined: 24 Jan 2006
Posts: 75
Location: Dai Po, Tai Wo
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| Posted: Mon Jan 30, 2006 6:50 am Post subject: |
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| Roger wrote: |
I had two HK Chinese girlfriends over the years, but I was never badgered and pushed into handing over a dowry, least of all a dowry of the kind described above.
I was, however, subjected to a rigorous examination with a view of finding out whether I was "suitable" for the daughter in question; I passed that exam...
I took part in a number of weddings as a guest; money is of the uppermost consideration in China in general and in HK in particular. Wedding guests didn't bring gifts such as household utensils but had to contribute to the banquet's costs; in one case my girlfriend (the one whose family found me suitable) told me guests had to hand over HK$ 400 in a red packet. The meal was nothing special but nevertheless rather expensive due to the place: a posh restaurant.
My own wedding (not with the above girl) was a lacklustre affair: just walk into the registrar's office and sign documents, then it was all over. Up to you to prolong the party if you feel like!
In HK, brides typically want a WESTERN-STYLE wedding because nit is so much more romantic! They want to wear a bridal dress (look around even in mainland cities you will find specialised shops that rent them out for a hefty price). In HK, you then go to the Cityhall to make a solemn oath, then you celebrate with your extended family and friends!
Weddings and burials are some of the most expensive affairs in the lives of Chinese! Lots of ostentation and prestige are involved! |
This all sounds so typical Japanese. Weddings are such a big industry.
Anyways, thanks for your post.
I think I will register as you did and postpone things forever, if I can get away with it. |
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Horizontal Hero
Joined: 26 Mar 2004
Posts: 2492
Location: The civilised little bit of China.
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| Posted: Mon Jan 30, 2006 9:19 am Post subject: |
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Be a litttle careful. I had a good deal from my marriage and Chinese family. I give them a little money here and there, but they put no pressure on me. They refused to accept money at the time of the wedding, as they knew we were short of cash.
One of my mates was not so lucky. He spent a %#$$*&^ of a lot of money on the Chinese girl he described as "the one I want to spend the rest of my life with." He gave the family RMB50 000 several months before the wedding as a kind of advance. When he went to her home town for the wedding he was told a sad tale by the father of how the money had been invested in a pig farm which went bust. He gave them another 50 000, as well as paying for the wedding. Then the happy couple went off to Australia for the wedding. "I can't wait to show her Australia!" he told me excitedly. Of course he paid for the honeymoon too. Six months later I heard the sad news that they'd broken up. She ran off with an American chap when they got back to China. |
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once again
Joined: 27 Jan 2003
Posts: 815
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| Posted: Sun Feb 05, 2006 10:54 am Post subject: |
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| After asking my collegues at work..there is good news and bad news. The good news is that non of the westerners paid it, but the bad news is that ALL of the locals did. The figures ranged from $50,000 to $100,000 HK, plus paying for the wedding dinner. It seems that the tradition is alive and well and doing quite nicely for itself after all. Everybody did tell me though that it depended on the attitude of the parents, but most of my collegues seemed to think that it was the right thing to do. I guess brides, whatever they might say, may feel insulted if the guy refused to pay. Just guessing as to why the guys might think it is the right thing to do. |
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buddhaboyjp
Joined: 24 Jan 2006
Posts: 75
Location: Dai Po, Tai Wo
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| Posted: Sun Feb 05, 2006 2:06 pm Post subject: |
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| once again wrote: |
| After asking my collegues at work..there is good news and bad news. The good news is that non of the westerners paid it, but the bad news is that ALL of the locals did. The figures ranged from $50,000 to $100,000 HK, plus paying for the wedding dinner. It seems that the tradition is alive and well and doing quite nicely for itself after all. Everybody did tell me though that it depended on the attitude of the parents, but most of my collegues seemed to think that it was the right thing to do. I guess brides, whatever they might say, may feel insulted if the guy refused to pay. Just guessing as to why the guys might think it is the right thing to do. |
Well, talked to the bride to be and seems like she may even help me out on this a bit, being that the main reason is to show appreciation and gratitude to her parents for taking care of her and giving advice in her life.
She still lives at home at 36 yrs of age! But that is nothing new here in Japan.
She is very reasonable person and I am very happy to be her partner.
Will look forward to seeing some of you in 2007 when I close things out here in Japan.
Thanks for your replies! |
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James Healy
Joined: 12 Jan 2006
Posts: 3
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| Posted: Mon Feb 06, 2006 10:37 pm Post subject: Dowry |
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My wife told me the same thing. I paid for the wedding and gave some small gifts to her brothers and sisters. Her parents are dead, and I didn't have to pay a dowry. On the plus side, I gained two stepdaughters. When they marry, I perfer the Chinese custom to the Western one.
(To tell the truth, I thought that my wife may have trying to con me.) |
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