Job Discussion Forums

[Super Frank]

When I began my TESOL course I wanted to come to LA, possibly Argentina but was open as to where really. Whilst on my course one of the other students put the idea in my head of China, better job prospects more money etc. I have come to teaching after carving out a career in London in housing management, then realising that I don't want to buy a flat in Wembley and remain there for the rest of my life. Now reading these forums (have never seen Daves on a search engine BTW, course tutors gave us the add) I feel a bit let down. I do not have a degree so to make a living out of ESL is looking very difficult at the moment. It sounds sad but I enjoy working hard, never late, never sick unless really really ill etc and genuinely looking for real commitment. No offence but the backpacking life is not for me. I am currently in negs with a job in LA and joining a chain in China. My heart says risk it come to LA but my sense says join a chain, work your way up and maybe I can develop a career. So, I am stuck between the two. Is it possible to make a decent living in Latin America, for perhaps the next 10 years or so? Or is the chain the best way to go? Look forward to hearing from you

[ls650]

I worked for a "chain school" in Indonesia for a year, and have taught in Mexico for about 20 months.

IMHO there is no comparison: although I saved up a lot more money in Indonesia I enjoyed my life in Mexico about an order of magnitude more.

In Asia you can bank a lot more money, and some people enjoy the "hustle bustle" of Asian life... but not me. If you are a hard worker, you can earn a solid living in Mexico, but you will never become rich - especially if you don't have a degree.

[naturegirl321]

I agree, Made more in China, schools pay for flats and furniture, but the stress was incredible. If you are disciplined, you can save pretty much anywhere, just divide up your money and the begning on the month, If you're going to save, don't spend it.

[JZer]

Super Frank,

I would say that if you want to make a career out of teaching ESL you really need to invest in a degree. The problem is you are between a rock and a hard place. you want to leave now but don't have a degree. The problem is that the countries that might pay you enough to earn an online degree while you teach, require a BA to get a visa. So you are left to teach in Latin America or China. In those countries it will be hard for you to earn enough to pay for an online degree while you are working.

Maybe you can figure out how to do an Associate degree while working in China and then transfer those credits to a larger university that offers a 4 year degree.

[MELEE]

I agree with JZer.
If you want to make a career out of education, you have to have some. Over the years, we've had applicants with years of experience (in chain schools, in Asia mostly) but no degree. We have to tell them that they need a degree to work at the university. One or two have sent nasty responses about how papers don't make people, and what have you. True, you need more than just papers to be a good teacher. But if the university didn't put value on having a degree, how could it justify its exsistance?
If you want to make a career, you will need to have more education, even if you decide to go to Asia. Maybe there you could go the DELTA route, but the time will come where not having papers will put you up against a wall in which you can't advance without them.

[ls650]

[Super Frank]

Thanks. I don't disagree with a word you're saying but I was not the academic type at school. Over the years I've learnt (rightly or wrongly) that the main point of having a degree was to demonstrate that one could assimilate information, work to deadlines and deliver work under pressure; subject matter in most cases being arbitary to the career you finally follow. That said education is perhaps a different matter. I was taught history by the music teacher who just read a chapter ahead of us and I got an E, so, true I would not want my children educated by chancers and laymen. Thanks for the reponses so as the (mis)quote goes education leads to another, well hidden door....

[Aramas]

A rather cynical view of education, but not necessarily incorrect

From my own experience, studying at university teaches people how to think, rather than what to think.

Most people ignore, ridicule, or are afraid of things that they don't understand. They go to extreme lengths to stay within their comfort zone. Every day at university people are handed another buttload of stuff that they don't understand, and eventually they become accustomed to it. In first and second year, most students feel smug and superior, not to mention very impressed with how much they know. By the end of third or fourth year, most students become aware of just how little anyone knows about anything, and how infinitely much there is to know. Therein lies the achievement of education. It takes people from a state of resistance to the unknown, to curiosity and acceptance of such as a matter of course.

[Guy Courchesne]

Skillfully and properly put Mr. A.

[JZer]

[JZer]

[Not St Louis]

Work your way up in chain school? Sorry it really doesn't quite work that way, many chain schools are franchises. So each branch has a different owner and there is only so high you can go, just up to DOS and that really isn't a promotion.

You could get your degree from many of the online universities. Excelsior College, (used to be called Regent's University) part of the University of the State of New York system, has a fully accredited degree that allows you to combine coursework and college level exams scores to put together 120 credits needed for a 4 year degree. It can cost a nice hunk of change to get it($800 for enrollment, $500 for graduation and each 3 credit exam can run you anywhere from $60 to $100), but if you put your mind to it, you can get the degree in less than a year.

If you don't want to go that path, I think Latin America offers your best bet. It seems like you could easily be involved in teaching business English in many parts of Latin America and maybe move up very quickly on your own, but in China, you are gonna constantly run into the degree thing. Just my opinion.

[Bounder]

Hi Super Frank:
I've been in China now for 3 years so maybe I can give you some advice regarding that country.

Firstly, officially one 'does' need a degree to teach in China. I do recommend getting a degree but the reality is that China isn't quite yet a country 'under law' in the same sense that Western countries are and there are numerous ways to be found around the system (I'm not recommending that mind you, and in most cases, it's the employers that will get around the rules, not so much the foreign teacher). The fact is is that there are MANY people teaching here without degrees, though they will typically be teaching in primary, middle or senior schools and also with the smaller, private, specialized schools which cater to teaching adults and university students and such.

Secondly, you 'can' save here depending upon where your working and your lifestyle. I do a lot of travelling during school season (Sept. to June) and yet I still manage to bring home a few thousand. I make 4,000 rmb per month, live on campus, my food is free in the cafeteria and I go home for the summer and I manage to bring home about 3,000 US. Not much but I do have a nest-egg back home and I am debt-free. Keep in mind much of my money goes to travelling. Most provinces in China will pay you about 4,000 rmb per month if you live on campus and 5,000 to 6,000 a month if you live off campus, the extra money going to pay for your rent of course. In the southwest of China such as Yunnan province and Sizhuan province, they tend to pay less, often around 3,500rmb per month. Those provinces are less industrialized and poorer but also the schools and companies know that foreigners want to teach in those areas (Kunming for example), so the competition is more fierce, hence the lower pay.

China is relatively safe for foreigners. Although there are horror stories as with any place, on average one doesn't have to worry too much about being a victim of violent crime, however do keep an eye on your belongings. If your wallet disappears, don't expect to find it at the police station or to have someone drop it in a mailbox for you.

Again, horror stories aside, the government regulates the schools more carefully than in some other countries and tends to keep an eye on, and to have a handle on the education system, public and private. Do watch out more for the smaller private schools but that advice carries through for any country.

Warning: China is 'not' a laid-back country. By and large, they tend to be diligent, putting in long-hours. The long hours won't usually apply to foreign teachers mind you, unless you want some extra work. There's definitely a noticeable work-ethic here. I light-heartedly commented to my friend last week that when it comes to driving, I never see drivers here just 'cruising,' that is driving leisurely say down a country road or through a park. They drive quite purposively with both hands on the wheel (a good idea in any case), and rush from point A to point B fervently and hurriedly toward their destination. A noticeably different attitude toward the pace of life from say, places such as Thailand, Laos or Cambodia. Vietnam is headed in the same direction as China BTW.

Foreign teachers will usually teach anywhere from 16-25 classes a week, at least in the public school systems. I have it relatively easy, teaching only 16 classes in the primary school where I am located.

China is screaming for teachers, all you have to do is check-out the job board to see for yourself. I myself am aiming for Latin America next year. I have my fingers crossed. If anyone knows of a school who wants to hire a middle-aged Canadian with teaching experience, let me know. Thanks.
Cheers, Bounder

[Super Frank]

Excellent responses, cheers guys. In the meantime I have accepted a job in Guiyang and am just waiting for start dates etc, but expect to be there by mid march and will just have to get my head down and see what happpens.
Not St Louis, thanks for the tip regarding the on-line degree, that is something that sounds very appealing, and affordable.

SF