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Pollux
Joined: 04 Jan 2006
Posts: 224
Location: PL
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 Posted: Fri Feb 10, 2006 8:41 pm Post subject: |
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Fine with me, as long as you teach the terms to the students. With lower level, I frequently talk about "sounds that vibrate" and "sounds that don't vibrate." A bit cumbersome in speech, but nicely clear in terms of meaning.
How do you all teach students to recognise the difference?
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I ask them to put the back of their fingers on their throats. When they feel the sound of the last part of the verb vibrating against their fingers, it's a 'd.' If it doesn't vibrate and only comes through the mouth, it's a 't.' If the verb ends with a 't' or a 'd,' it's a 'id.' I make sure everyone gets the idea. There are a lot of regular verbs. It's magic. |
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Justin Trullinger
Joined: 28 Jan 2005
Posts: 3110
Location: Seoul, South Korea and Myanmar for a bit
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| Posted: Fri Feb 10, 2006 9:06 pm Post subject: |
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| just stick the finger on the larynx. |
That's what I do, too. And it works ALMOST all the time. But every now and then, I get a student who pronounces bady, really has no ear for it, and I get a little stuck. If they are truly mispronouncing sounds so that they don't vibrate at the right times...problem. Spanish speakers often do this with "s" and "z" phoneme distinctions. Also the surd and sonant variations of "th." (I can't do the symbols here.)
My occasional last resort is to put the student's hand on my own, or another student's, larynx. It does the trick, but I've wondered if in some cultures it would be seen as an invasion of personal space. (Here in Ecuador, personal space is a theoretical concept that we don't really believe in. Short of actually biting them, students, coworkers, and strangers will unblinkingly tolerate any invasion of their personal areas.)
Regards,
Justin |
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Pollux
Joined: 04 Jan 2006
Posts: 224
Location: PL
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| Posted: Fri Feb 10, 2006 9:22 pm Post subject: |
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Um, usually if you're invited to give a seminar to a designated group, you know something about that group. Who are the teachers? What have they taught? How do they teach English pronunciation? Where did they study?
In other words, have you done a needs assessment? Did whoever invited you to give the seminar do a needs assessment or even tell you what you should do?
Sounds like the blind leading the blind, especially if you yourself don't know enough about pronunciation to have (or know where to obtain) your own materials for five sessions. |
Usually, in Vladivostok?! Look at the map. |
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memorabilis
Joined: 04 Feb 2005
Posts: 54
Location: Seoul, South Korea
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| Posted: Sat Feb 11, 2006 4:04 pm Post subject: |
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There's always making the paper move for aspirated and unaspirated stops (p, t, k).
As for "th" - voiced and voiceless - you can have the students put their fingers in front of their lips when forming the sounds. If your tongue doesn't touch your finger, you aren;t saying it right.
I also have my little Koreans feel my larynx to tell the difference between voiced and voiceless sounds. I also have them put their hand in my airstream to feel the difference between a continuant (like f) and a stop (like p). They are sometimes a little uncomfortable at first, but in the end they think it's hilarious. Often they come up at the end of class and put their hands on my throat because they want to feel the vibrations again they get such a kick out of it. I'm not sure how the adults would feel about it, but they usually can understand what I'm asking them to do better, so it's not necessary. |
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Henry_Cowell
Joined: 27 May 2005
Posts: 3352
Location: Berkeley
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| Posted: Sat Feb 11, 2006 9:01 pm Post subject: |
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| Pollux wrote: |
| Usually, in Vladivostok?! Look at the map. |
ANY time one is invited to give a series of seminars to teachers, one has a clue of what and whom to expect. And one typically has the resources to draw upon (based on experience and knowledge) instead of calling on anonymous persons on an Internet site for help.
Why accept an invitation to give five seminars on pronunciation TO TEACHERS if one has no idea how to go about it?? These are not students; they are English teachers!
They'll probably laugh him out of the room if he does some of the very elementary things you guys suggest -- as if they hadn't heard or read of them before. 
Again, what do they actually need and want to learn? The OP should pose questions with a very specific survey before preparing for the seminars. Nobody's heard of "needs assessment"? |
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Stephen Jones
Joined: 21 Feb 2003
Posts: 4124
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| Posted: Sat Feb 11, 2006 9:43 pm Post subject: |
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Dear Henry
In my experience of training for non-native teachers of English there can be a vast difference in the quality of the participants. Some could be good enough to be leading the seminar, and others would be better replaced by their students.
I suspect that what the OP is really being asked to do is to conduct workshops - that is to say much of the work is about improving the pronounciation of the teachers themselves and training them what to listen for, rather than an academic seminar on the theoretical underpinning of pronunciation and its pedagogy. |
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Henry_Cowell
Joined: 27 May 2005
Posts: 3352
Location: Berkeley
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| Posted: Sat Feb 11, 2006 10:01 pm Post subject: |
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| The OP really told us nothing about what he's been asked to do with "pronunciation". He simply asked for advice for "seminars" for teachers. |
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valley_girl
Joined: 22 Sep 2004
Posts: 272
Location: Somewhere in Canada
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| Posted: Sat Feb 11, 2006 11:42 pm Post subject: |
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| Henry_Cowell wrote: |
| Pollux wrote: |
| Usually, in Vladivostok?! Look at the map. |
ANY time one is invited to give a series of seminars to teachers, one has a clue of what and whom to expect. And one typically has the resources to draw upon (based on experience and knowledge) instead of calling on anonymous persons on an Internet site for help. |
Most of the anonymous persons on this Internet site are currently teaching or have taught ESL/EFL. It seems perfectly reasonable to me to ask others in your field for suggestions on teaching methods and approaches. After all, that's the main reason one would attend a conference or workshop, is it not? You're not likely to know many of those people either.
| Henry_Cowell wrote: |
| Why accept an invitation to give five seminars on pronunciation TO TEACHERS if one has no idea how to go about it?? These are not students; they are English teachers! |
If you will go back and read the OP again, you'll see that s/he did state that s/he does have an idea of how to go about it, but merely was interested in some new insight.
| Henry_Cowell wrote: |
| They'll probably laugh him out of the room if he does some of the very elementary things you guys suggest -- as if they hadn't heard or read of them before. |
Why? Even if they are teachers of English, this doesn't guarantee that they know everything there is to know about the language. Most teachers I worked with overseas had pretty bad pronunciation and even worse methods for teaching it. There have been many valuable suggestions made on this thread. Why not contribute some of your own?
| Henry_Cowell wrote: |
| Again, what do they actually need and want to learn? The OP should pose questions with a very specific survey before preparing for the seminars. Nobody's heard of "needs assessment"? |
It is entirely possible that the OP has done or is planning to do a needs assessment. You are making assumptions here.
I don't understand the purpose of your post, Henry Cowell. I thought your comments were not only unjustified but also just plain rude. |
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memorabilis
Joined: 04 Feb 2005
Posts: 54
Location: Seoul, South Korea
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| Posted: Sun Feb 12, 2006 11:37 am Post subject: |
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| I worked with the OP for a year teaching pronunciation. He does have some clue as to what he's doing! |
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Henry_Cowell
Joined: 27 May 2005
Posts: 3352
Location: Berkeley
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| Posted: Sun Feb 12, 2006 7:18 pm Post subject: |
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| Until the OP returns here to let us know more, we simply have no clue why he would have accepted an invitation to give five "seminars" to English teachers and then come to an anonymous forum to ask how to go about it. |
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Justin Trullinger
Joined: 28 Jan 2005
Posts: 3110
Location: Seoul, South Korea and Myanmar for a bit
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| Posted: Sun Feb 12, 2006 11:38 pm Post subject: |
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| Why accept an invitation to give five seminars on pronunciation TO TEACHERS if one has no idea how to go about it?? These are not students; they are English teachers! |
Well, frequently I run into English teachers with whom I have to speak Spanish to insure comprehension.
I guess that non-native teachers of English vary in language skills the world over. I wouldn't be laughed out of the room for doing these activities with Ecuadorian teachers of English.
I find that even very advanced level non-native speakers often have trouble with word/sentence stress.
Regards,
Justin |
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