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checkmate
Joined: 22 May 2005
Posts: 55
Location: Shenzhen. China
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 Posted: Sun Feb 12, 2006 10:11 am Post subject: Referring to Get Real this is China |
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I have been in China for 2 years teaching. I was wondering. What would happen if we treated Chinese employees the way we are treated here. In my hometown 12% of the population are Chinese. They only speak their own language, live together in the same area, shop in other Chinese stores but they can get all their normal food there. They have their own doctors and even schools. They protested and got government representation at local and national level.
Basically they are treated exactly the same and sometimes better then our own citizens to help them fit in.
Then after waiting a number of years they get citizenship aand return to China with all the money they made sometimes without paying tax. Our money is 5.6 times Chinese money.
But I stray from the subject.
It is said china is a developing country but developing what. The rich get richer and the poor stay on the farm.
I was offered a contract at a school that also promised so much. I went there 2 weeks beforehand to hash out some contract details. Then they contacted me and said to go there. When I arrived they showed me the apartment. It did have a new cooker, fridge, washing machine, bed and table.The accommodation part of the contract was the usual western style apartment. HA. No blankets, no cooking utensils, no cups or knives. Just 4 bowls, 4 plates and a packet of chopsticks. They supplied a TV with bad reception, A DVD but no connectors to use it on the TV, no phoneline or internet access, No A/C, no cleaning things like a broom or a mop. No gas for the cooker so I had to arrange it thinking the school had an account with the company. They didnt and I had to pay for it myself. 180RMB And the kicker is a Chinese style toilet with (get this) no way to flush it. I think you use the shower head to flush the toilet. After talking with the school their answer was sorry we are really busy now. This is after a 2 week break for the new year. Obviously I didnt sign the contract and I left the school at my own expense.
Unfortunately there is a Candian girl there who just arrived in country having signed a contract beforehand and has the same problems but the school isolated her from many things.
So for that poster who wrote "Get Real this is China" perhaps if more thought was given to truth in contracts and agencies having more knowledge about the schools and Chinese respecting our morals and standards as much as we are contractually obliged to respect Chinese morals and standards then perhaps things would improve.
Finally, we have a saying. " If bulls**t was money you'd be a millionaire. Perhaps here in China it is more of a rule of business. |
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kev7161
Joined: 06 Feb 2004
Posts: 5880
Location: Suzhou, China
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| Posted: Sun Feb 12, 2006 11:22 am Post subject: |
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You did the right thing in going to your school early and checking things out. Sadly, that is not always do-able for most and they do get stuck. OR money is an issue and cannot afford to leave.
If one can find a place offering half school-year contracts with the option to renew, that may be the best deal. Almost any situation is bearable for about 4 1/2 to 5 months. Also, if things are really craptacular upon arrival, see about a local English mill. Again, if that place is horrible, hopefully your contract is also short. You may end up at a nice place though (Dell International in Hangzhou, by the way, is tops!) and are none the worse for wear.
By the by, I ALWAYS ask if accomodations have a "western" toilet. No squatting for me, thanks. A former student invited me to his home for next Spring Festival. He lives in rural area. I said how nice he was to invite me and does his home have a western toilet? He sort of balked and said "no, but we should have one by next year." We'll see . . . |
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clark.w.griswald
Joined: 06 Dec 2004
Posts: 2056
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| Posted: Sun Feb 12, 2006 1:12 pm Post subject: Re: Referring to Get Real this is China |
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| checkmate wrote: |
| I have been in China for 2 years teaching. I was wondering. What would happen if we treated Chinese employees the way we are treated here. In my hometown 12% of the population are Chinese. They only speak their own language, live together in the same area, shop in other Chinese stores but they can get all their normal food there. They have their own doctors and even schools. They protested and got government representation at local and national level. |
I understand why you have made this analogy but I question the validity of it.
If you truely want to be treated the same as a local Chinese person in this country then that is your fight to fight, but I think that you need to take the good with the bad. You need to accept the lower wages that local workers earn, the fact that travelling to other countries is a drag, that you are treated like dirt by your own government etc. etc. You also need to forgoe your travel allowance, accomodation allowance, medical insurance, airfare reimbursement, tax free threshhold of RMB4,000 etc. This is what it would mean to be treated the same as the locals.
I don't expect that you were expecting that the rest of the country would raise to our level in order for us all to be equal.
Sure we foreigners have our fair share of problems here but it seems to me that these pale into insignificance when compared with the daily battle of the local workers. And I am not talking about laborers or farmers here. I am talking about locals with the same educational qualifications as ourselves.
| checkmate wrote: |
| Our money is 5.6 times Chinese money. |
We can blame our employers for many things but I don't think that you can blame our employers for this.
The fact is that most of us get paid several times more than other staff in our schools and offices. Of course we have expenses in coming here etc. that locals don't have, but then most of us come here by choice and I am not aware of many people here who were forced to come.
Of course not many people would come if we were only offered local wages as it just wouldn't work out financially. Therefore our wages seem to be based upon supply and demand, just as they should be. This is the only truely fair way for both sides such that schools can afford to actually hire foreign teachers, while teachers can earn a decent quid. If an authority was dictate a much higher pay rate for foreigners, let's say something in line with back home, then many schools would no longer be able to afford foreign teachers and the job market would almost dry up.
| checkmate wrote: |
| So for that poster who wrote "Get Real this is China" perhaps if more thought was given to truth in contracts and agencies having more knowledge about the schools and Chinese respecting our morals and standards as much as we are contractually obliged to respect Chinese morals and standards then perhaps things would improve. |
Considering that many of these sorts of problems are the result of differences of opinion rather than outright deceipt, it seems that it would be somewhat difficult to eradicate these problems.
It seems to me that the best way to avoid the sorts of problems that you allude to is to do your research. By contacting schools, teachers at those schools, and doing some research about schools on the net, you can quite possibly turn up complaints about the sorts of things that you mention if they exist. You can then decide whether or not these things are a problem for you.
What would be helpful would be for you to list the good and bad points of the school that you refer to, and then tell us the name of the school as well as the city and province that it is in. Just think. If everyone took five minutes to do this then there would be a wealth of information on the internet about such things about which schools have western toilets etc. |
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Brian Caulfield
Joined: 14 Sep 2004
Posts: 1247
Location: China
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| Posted: Sun Feb 12, 2006 2:09 pm Post subject: |
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Well said Clark . I here these kinds of complaints here a lot . These things they need to furnish their apartments cost a pittance . In Japan , Hong Kong and sometimes in Korea and Taiwan you must rent your own apartment . Generally accomodations in China are above par .
And don't forget the Chinese immigrants in Western countries are rich . It is the law of the world . RICH PEOPLE LIVE BETTER THAN POOR PEOPLE . Otherwise the capitalistic system doesn't work. |
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checkmate
Joined: 22 May 2005
Posts: 55
Location: Shenzhen. China
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| Posted: Sun Feb 12, 2006 5:04 pm Post subject: Response |
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Hi clarke,
you have raised some interesting points which for the sake of discussion I would like to offer a response
When I say about being treated the same as locals. Even in China professionals are accorded a certain amount of respect and paid to their ability but its not about how much salary a person is paid. Its about offering what is on a contract. If you havent got it then dont offer it and dont lie about it.
Locals with the same education levels as us. Perhaps this is an oxy moron. If locals had the same level of education as us then there would be no need to hire us. I wonder if you asked a surgeon to work for
the same rates as an intern he or she would agree. There is always the comparison of we make 2 or 3 times as much as our chinese counterparts. If they attained the same education levels as us would they still be getting low wages. for myself I would like to meet a Chinese teacher who teachs english that has the same qualifications and practical ability as us who makes low wages. At one school the chinese teachers who had similar qualifications and practical ability as myself made the same money.
Now to difference of opinions. This is a regular excuse used quoting misunderstanding. how many times is the language barrier used. I can speak some Chinese and understand a lot more and in the conversations Ive heard its usually " he's an upity laowai". and usually there are a lot of smiles but nothing really gets done
As to the school.
The school is the Pinghu Foreign Language School north of Shenzhen just near Longgang. The school has been open for 2 years. Very beautiful looking school buildings.
It is 90 minutes by bus back to downtown Shenzhen. bus number 372. The town is like any border town and the school is just outside the Pinghu township in an industrial area so there is motorbikes from sun up to sundown. Very noisy.
The school has 1400 students from primary through senior highschool.
The contract conditions are 6000RMB per month. 20 classes per week, 3 activity classes, team meetings, maybe like staff meetings and of course the ever present English corners. Contract for 1 term. 3000RMB at the end of contract for airfare. Sponsored work/residence visa
Apartments. right next to a prretty busy road with motorbikes all day and all night. No western toilets. No internet access unless you want to pay it yourself. School will pay half gas and water bill but you pay your first gas yourself and your drinking water.
No outside teaching allowed unless ageed first by the school.
no supermarkets near the school and its about a 10-15 minute walk from the school to Pinghu township. The apartments do have a couple of kiosks which sell basic stuff like beer smokes and packet noodles and some dried goods.
The apartments are furnished with a double bed, fridge, washing machine, gas cooker, desk, small dinning table, wardrobe and water dispenser, TV, DVD, 4 bowls, 4 plates and a packet of chop sticks.
No blankets, cutlery, pots or pans, kitchen cupboard, clothes hangers, internet,phone(but they were working on installing phones sometime)
The school officials were very nice but obviously had no experience in dealing with foreign teachers although they said they had some before.
I was fortunate because I live in Shenzhen anyway so when it didnt wotk out I was able to come home but I feel sorry for those that cant do that. Particularly if you are outside the country and even if you do research the contracts are made deceptively and of course once you arrive then its too late.
In saying that I believe that this could be a good school but their total inexperience of understanding foreign teachers let them down.
Since I have been here I have always adhered to my contracts and gone above what I was required to do as a teacher sometimes even doing extra classes, lectures, sports activities, promotion and office work with enthusiasm and without complaint. all I ask is that the contracts be fair, truthful and the schools adhere to them as I am expected to do. I never ask for more then the contract and dont care how much the school makes.
For me its simple. If you dont have say.... internet or phone then say so. Lying about it and then not having it just sucks.
So for all those agents or recruiters or even schools. Try this. Say what you mean and mean what you say. |
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Mysterious Mark
Joined: 15 Dec 2004
Posts: 121
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| Posted: Sun Feb 12, 2006 5:51 pm Post subject: Re: Referring to Get Real this is China |
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I hear you, Clark, but I'm afraid you've missed the OP's original point.
| checkmate wrote: |
| I have been in China for 2 years teaching. I was wondering. What would happen if we treated Chinese employees the way we are treated here. In my hometown 12% of the population are Chinese. They only speak their own language, live together in the same area, shop in other Chinese stores but they can get all their normal food there. They have their own doctors and even schools. They protested and got government representation at local and national level. |
Imagine: you work at a normal public school in a western country. Mandarin is the Next Big Thing, so parents want their kids to learn it, and they want them to learn it from native Mandarin speakers. Most can't or don't want to pay to send their kids to private training centres, so they petition the school and the board of education to hire foreign teachers... The board says the schools can charge the parents extra for this special privilege, and the parents grudgingly agree, not knowing that it really only costs a fraction of the money the school charges... And so a Chinese teacher finally signs a contract, gets a tourist visa (with a promise from the school to convert it later), buys a plane ticket and flies on over.
Upon arrival, the school shoves a new contract in the teacher's face and says "Sign this!" The teacher asks why and is told that the original contract isn't legally binding. Not knowing what to do, not having more money than he was told would be necessary, not having any friends in the country, and not speaking the local language, he reluctantly signs the new contract, which gives him a much worse deal than the original contract.
They show him his apartment. It's worse than the apartments most local middle class people live in, it's filthy, it's cheap, it doesn't have the promised inventory, the toilet doesn't flush, etc. It's a dump. "How do I pay the utility bills?" he asks. "Oh, we will help you!" And so the school collects the bills on behalf of the utility companies, shamelessly ripping off the teacher in the process, sometimes tenfold.
At school, he's told that he isn't allowed to actually teach in the normal sense of the word, instead having to do some silly repetitive exercises that anyone else could do, but he's Chinese, so they consider it special when he does the stuff. The students have been told not to take him too seriously, so they don't take him seriously at all. When he asks for help, they laugh at him and say, "Didn't you go to teacher's college? You should have no problem dealing with the situation." The other teachers make snide, racist comments about him in English, even when they know he can get the gist of what they're saying.
He can't walk down the street without people saying "Chinaman! Knee how, Chinaman! Ha ha ha!" Everywhere he goes, people try to cheat him, even in the most ridiculous ways. When he tries to have a social life, the thugs in the local bar threaten to beat him up for simply being there, thinking that he's obviously trying to steal their women and pollute the gene pool. Meanwhile, other women try to seduce him in the hopes of getting rich...
When he asks why he hasn't been paid, he's told, "This is the West!" When he asks his colleagues if they've been paid, they tell him "Yes but you are different. And you earn more than we do, so you should be ashamed for coming here and making us feel jealous." When he asks why the school is repeatedly breaking the (second) contract, they just throw any excuse they can think of at him, no matter how stupid and/or false it is. When he tries to find out what the law says, people give him the run-around as often as they can. The government doesn't put out any notices saying (in non-official languages) "If you can't read this, please call this number for help." When he finds a group of Chinese speakers at the police station, they just laugh him out of the building.
Eventually he realizes that he actually is despised for being a "foreign devil" and doesn't want to take it any more, no matter how idealistic he used to be about bridging cultural gaps, so he tries to contact the media about these racist violations of his human rights etc., and they won't touch the story with a 20 foot poll...
And so on, and so on. Just think of every single problem you've ever heard of a foreign teacher having in China. (Fake income tax, "office hours", no airfare, lies, lies, lies...)
Now since this is a hypothetical parallel universe, the scenario doesn't quite coincide with generally accepted notions of plausibility. And that's part of the point: there's a kind of thinking that says if we come to China, we deserve what we get and don't have the right to expect anything better, and there's another kind of thinking that says yes China's different and we should be open-minded about the differences, but there are limits. It's one thing to be curious and confused about cultural and ethnic differences, real and imagined, but it's another thing to wantonly discriminate against people, espeically isolated, disadvantaged visitors. So of course there are going to be misunderstandings when cultures meet each other, and we should try to be accomodating to the curious, mis-informed and under-informed people who perceive foreigners inaccurately. But if you wouldn't tolerate certain behaviour in your own country on the grounds that it's downright nasty, despicable, unfair, rude, hurtful, etc., being away from home doesn't necessarily mean that you should suddenly tolerate such things. Accepting too much shit will lower the perception others have of you and everyone that they associate with you. It perpetuates flaws in the system, and therefore it doesn't work towards the ideal of building a harmonious society.
And how do China and other countries differ in how they actually do treat foreigners? I once responded to a suggestion of foreign teachers in the US by saying that there are none. "Yes there are, lots of Spanish teachers come from other countries..." "Yes, but the 'Foreign Teacher' doesn't exist as a cultural concept, does it? They don't walk down the street and get laughed at, do they?" "No, I suppose they don't..." There's that whole acceptance thing, even the whole multicultural melting-pot thing, that the Chinese (and others) apparently haven't heard of. I'm not saying China should become a melting-pot (moreso than it already has been), but in response to the original question, I think we can safely say that the kind of treatment many FT's receive in China just wouldn't fly in the West, and there are good reasons why it wouldn't.
There are a few other things in your post that I take exception to.
| clark.w.griswald wrote: |
| If you truely want to be treated the same as a local Chinese person in this country then that is your fight to fight, but I think that you need to take the good with the bad. You need to accept the lower wages that local workers earn, the fact that travelling to other countries is a drag, that you are treated like dirt by your own government etc. etc. You also need to forgoe your travel allowance, accomodation allowance, medical insurance, airfare reimbursement, tax free threshhold of RMB4,000 etc. This is what it would mean to be treated the same as the locals. |
Foreign teachers don't always get the benefits they're apparently entitled to. Sometimes they get nothing but a salary and have extra expenses they aren't even supposed to have, like visas and "deposits". On the other hand, Chinese teachers sometimes get bonuses through the roof: housing, food, travel expenses, special overtime pay, holiday bonuses, an end of year bonus equivalent to a full year's salary, etc. Now I'm not a social scientist, so I wouldn't claim to know how common this sort of package is for Chinese teachers as compared to having to fend for themselves on low salaries (which some say is far more common, though how they would know is another question), but then it should also be noted that most of them have local networks of friends and family to help them out, and most of them don't have higher prices, language barriers etc. in their daily lives.
| Quote: |
| Sure we foreigners have our fair share of problems here but it seems to me that these pale into insignificance when compared with the daily battle of the local workers. |
(Agreed, for the most part.)
| Quote: |
| And I am not talking about laborers or farmers here. I am talking about locals with the same educational qualifications as ourselves. |
Qualifications among foreign teachers are widely varied. Have you done a survey of the qualifications of Chinese teachers and the switching from one subject to another that goes on at some schools? And surely you know what they say about Chinese universities...
| Quote: |
| Considering that many of these sorts of problems are the result of differences of opinion rather than outright deceipt, it seems that it would be somewhat difficult to eradicate these problems. |
Differences of opinion are easier to deal with overall, because the problem with outright deception is that the deceivers don't respect the deceivees, and they "can't" admit to having made the deceptions, so if they want to change their positions, they'll only do it if they think they can convince the deceivees that they had always said whatever they've suddenly come up with - more deception! But usually, they just keep on lying and get offended if they're accused of it. And they're doing it for reasons of money, power, and cheap thrills. "I tricked the laowai! Ha, I'm so smart!" That's a far cry from a mere difference of opinion like what constitutes clean/standard/etc.
| Quote: |
It seems to me that the best way to avoid the sorts of problems that you allude to is to do your research. By contacting schools, teachers at those schools, and doing some research about schools on the net, you can quite possibly turn up complaints about the sorts of things that you mention if they exist. You can then decide whether or not these things are a problem for you.
What would be helpful would be for you to list the good and bad points of the school that you refer to, and then tell us the name of the school as well as the city and province that it is in. Just think. If everyone took five minutes to do this then there would be a wealth of information on the internet about such things about which schools have western toilets etc. |
Yes, people have been doing that for some time now. And a lot of those websites are blocked in China. And a lot of people are afraid of reprisals. Others just can't be bothered, and/or they don't want to sound like whiners. So some people give up hope, pack their bags and move on, their impressions of China forever marred by the ill treatment they've received, and sometimes people say surprising things about how wonderful their home countries are, things that they would have scoffed at in the past, the key difference being that now they've personally experienced racism and xenophobia of the sort that they thought wasn't supposed to exist anymore in civilized societies.
I don't expect to get all the same things in China that I would in another country, but if we don't stand up for ourselves and instead say oh-well-this-is-China-there's-nothing-to-be-done-and-there-are-millions-starving-so-I-should-shut-up-and-feel-bad, many of the Chinese who witness this behaviour and hear about it will continue think that it's acceptable to mistreat foreigners, and not just westerners - and if you can mistreat foreigners, why not mistreat anyone else you can take advantage of, like Chinese from other regions? - or members of your own family? - and in the long run that helps neither us nor them nor anyone else.
My two fen. |
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clark.w.griswald
Joined: 06 Dec 2004
Posts: 2056
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| Posted: Sun Feb 12, 2006 9:45 pm Post subject: Re: Response |
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I appreciate your reply checkmate and your further information about the school. It seems to me that your views are quite fair.
| checkmate wrote: |
| Its about offering what is on a contract. If you havent got it then dont offer it and dont lie about it. |
Agreed.
If something is as black and white as 'your apartment will have a TV' then it should indeed have a TV. And one that works  In the richer cities this TV may be quite large and quite new as this would be the norm in those cities, while in dirt poor cities your TV may be somewhat lacking, but functional nonetheless. Certainly a teacher in one of those poor areas may be disappointed by such a TV but I don't really see this as the schools fault, as the staff at the school may consider such a luxury.
So yes, if they say that you get a TV in your contract or even verbally, then that is what you should get, but there may be differences of opinion as to what type of TV you get.
| checkmate wrote: |
| Locals with the same education levels as us. Perhaps this is an oxy moron. If locals had the same level of education as us then there would be no need to hire us. |
I don't agree with this.
Locals with the same education level as us, have the same education level as us, be that a Bachelors degree, masters etc.
The reason that many of us foreigners get employed is not based upon our superior educational qualifications, but purely upon the fact that we speak English fluently, which is something that even many more highly educated locals can't do. So while there are some exceptions, generally speaking we foeigners get paid more based solely upon the need to pay us more to get us here, not based upon any real educational value.
| checkmate wrote: |
| I wonder if you asked a surgeon to work for the same rates as an intern he or she would agree. |
In another thread here, someone esle has suggested that the above is true.
In that thread it is suggested that there should be not a lower wage for an initial probationary period and that all teachers should be paid the same from the get go. This would therefore place a potential new graduate with no teaching experience alongside an experienced teacher at that school, which is similar to your analogy above.
Personally, I believe that each individual teacher should be able to negotiate and get paid according to what he or she deserves. I see actual on the ground teaching experience in China as being somewhat more valuable than extensive educational academic qualifications, and I encourage teachers who have either experience or qualifications to set themselves aside from newbies so that schools can come to appreciate the value of experience in the classroom.
| checkmate wrote: |
| Now to difference of opinions. This is a regular excuse used quoting misunderstanding. how many times is the language barrier used. I can speak some Chinese and understand a lot more and in the conversations Ive heard |
As a Chinese speaker myself I am also now able to bypass a lot of misunderstandings, but they still occur. For me this is not really language based, but instead culturally based. In the case of a western toilet or the Chinese hole in the ground, this may be overlooked by staff unfamiliar with westerners, who instead concentrate on installing a hot water heater so that the foreign guest can have the luxury of hot water whenever we need it. As many of us know, schools in country areas may only have hot running water at certain times of the day or even only certain days of the week for both staff and students to bathe. So hot water all day everyday is a real luxury.
From a Chinese person with no overseas experience, and very little experience with westeners the fact that we prefer a sit on toilet is easily overlooked. Certainly I would agree that this is a mistake on the behalf of the school, and the lack of a western toilet would be a warning bell to me that perhaps there will be other instances where staff and the foreign teacher won't see eye to eye.
I totally agree with the rest of your post as far as any school that keeps its promises and says what it means is likely to attract favorable reviews from its teachers which is beneficial to everyone. |
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tofuman
Joined: 02 Jul 2004
Posts: 937
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| Posted: Sun Feb 12, 2006 10:18 pm Post subject: |
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I commend the op for visiting the school before signing on; however, most of his complaints are those of a tourist rather than an ESL teacher.
Squat toilets are anatomically correct as far as the evacuee is concerned. They are quite superior to Western style sit down toilets. Your complaint is a cultural problem due to your western customs. Once you learn the art of the squat, you won't want to go back.
As for cooking utensils, it is advantageous to be able to select your own. Locals are not familiar with our kitchen habits and can waste a bit of money on utensils that are quite useless to Westerners. All you need is a gas burner, wok, and some bowls. I know it is difficult not having Mommy around to cook for you, but if you are developmentally arrested to that degree, coming to China was a mistake.
Although there are a lot of people that condemn those who teach illegally in China, signing a contract poses its own unique problems. Consider the laws in Nazi Germany. Would you be bothered about not following them?
Locals use the law to rip off and exploit foreigners contrary to the purpose and spirit of civil law. When law is misused to abuse those in conscientious subjection to it, it is time to consider alternatives. Once you sign that contract, technically you become subject to the administration of the school you work for, including a potentially sociopathic FAO, vice principal, and other lunatics on board.
Careful.
Last edited by tofuman on Mon Feb 13, 2006 6:13 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Louras
Joined: 24 Nov 2004
Posts: 288
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| Posted: Mon Feb 13, 2006 1:53 am Post subject: Yeah |
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| Do not complain. Accept all the BS. This is China. Get your own back by treating all Asians like sh1t, back home. This forum is only for the people that are constantly treated well and never have a problem. If the locals lie and cheat - it's your fault. If they deceive you in many ways, ditto. |
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clark.w.griswald
Joined: 06 Dec 2004
Posts: 2056
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| Posted: Mon Feb 13, 2006 6:24 am Post subject: Re: Referring to Get Real this is China |
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I can�t disagree with you logic Mark, but I still think that things aren�t exactly as you have suggested.
| Mysterious Mark wrote: |
| The board says the schools can charge the parents extra for this special privilege, and the parents grudgingly agree, not knowing that it really only costs a fraction of the money the school charges... |
What does this have to do with the teacher? Honestly, what does it matter how much the students are paying for a class compared to how much the teacher is getting paid for teaching it? The teacher�s only interest in financial matters as I see it is to ensure that he or she is getting paid an amount for his or her time that they are happy with. It seems that teachers who get caught up in worrying about what others are getting paid or how much the school is or isn�t making are leading themselves down the path of future resentment.
| Mysterious Mark wrote: |
| Upon arrival, the school shoves a new contract in the teacher's face and says "Sign this!" The teacher asks why and is told that the original contract isn't legally binding. |
I am not sure that this is even remotely the norm but I do agree that it can and does happen. The practice is obviously indefensible and the obvious way to deal with the problem is to walk. If you accept the new conditions then you are effectively saying that it is acceptable for schools to behave in this manner and they may do it again and again.
Sure, turning your back on a job when all of your plans have been made around that position is a pretty daunting thing to do, but at the end of the day you have the choice. If you accept the new conditions then you accept what these stipulate and therefore have no reason to complain later. If you walk away then you have no further responsibility to that school. What some teachers seem to do however is to take the job because they need it and the money that it brings in, but once the are on their feet these same teachers do a runner or come to a place like Daves to complain about all aspects of the school and the terms that they knowingly accepted.
If a Chinese person did this in my home country I certainly would not tolerate it very well.
| Mysterious Mark wrote: |
| They show him his apartment. It's worse than the apartments most local middle class people live in, it's filthy, it's cheap, it doesn't have the promised inventory, the toilet doesn't flush, etc. It's a dump. |
I don�t agree with this at all. I believe that almost without exception foreign teacher accommodation is much better than the average housing in that city. This will of course vary according to the level of the housing in that city such that school provided accommodation in Shanghai will likely have all the mod cons, while in some backwater town it will likely have only very minimal appointments. The housing is often far from homely, but it is basic and serves its purpose.
Of course the issue of broken toilets and broken air conditioners is not acceptable but in my experience the schools tend to repair these sorts of things pretty promptly when requested to do so. They don�t however proactively attempt to resolve these matters so you will have to make a request which may seem a bit odd to someone freshly arrived from a western country � but it does not make the Chinese wrong. Just different.
| Mysterious Mark wrote: |
| "How do I pay the utility bills?" he asks. "Oh, we will help you!" And so the school collects the bills on behalf of the utility companies, shamelessly ripping off the teacher in the process, sometimes tenfold. |
I have never understood this complaint either.
How do you know that you are being ripped off ten fold if you never see the bills?
If you see the bills and it is evident that you are being ripped off ten fold then why don�t you point out the difference in the amounts? You don�t need any Chinese ability to do this as the numbers are recognizable by everyone.
| Mysterious Mark wrote: |
| At school, he's told that he isn't allowed to actually teach in the normal sense of the word, instead having to do some silly repetitive exercises that anyone else could do, but he's Chinese, so they consider it special when he does the stuff. |
Surely it is the right of the school to decide how they want to approach the teaching of subjects within that school. While in your opinion their methods are flawed, others may consider their methods to be quite productive.
I accept that some schools make a mistake by not first outlining clearly what they expect of their teachers prior to having those teachers sign a contract, but I don�t see that it is the role of the teacher to dictate to the school how classes should be run. If the school is interested in the teachers input then that is great and likely to everyone�s mutual benefit, but if the school has already made it�s decision then either like it or lump it.
| Mysterious Mark wrote: |
| He can't walk down the street without people saying "Chinaman! Knee how, Chinaman! Ha ha ha!" Everywhere he goes, people try to cheat him, even in the most ridiculous ways. When he tries to have a social life, the thugs in the local bar threaten to beat him up for simply being there, thinking that he's obviously trying to steal their women and pollute the gene pool. Meanwhile, other women try to seduce him in the hopes of getting rich... |
We all know for a fact that there are certain areas of all of our cities back home where Chinese people would face the same problems. Fortunately most westerners are more culturally sensitive in this regard such that most of us are not so overt in our reaction to those who are different.
Despite being here for years I still get annoyed by exactly the things that you outline above, but I realize that it doesn�t make any sense to let it get me down. I live here because I choose to live here and I accept the inconveniences that come with this decision. Maybe you should do the same as fighting it is not likely to do anyone any good.
| Mysterious Mark wrote: |
| When he asks why he hasn't been paid, he's told, "This is the West!" When he asks his colleagues if they've been paid, they tell him "Yes but you are different. And you earn more than we do, so you should be ashamed for coming here and making us feel jealous." |
I often hear complaints about delayed payments, but I rarely if ever hear complaints of non-payment. This is an area that the Chinese can certainly improve upon and the sooner that they do this the sooner that a lot of aggravation will be avoided. I have a lot of sympathy for teachers who face this sort of problem, but the only consolation that I can give is that it is unlikely that the school is being deliberately dishonest.
| Mysterious Mark wrote: |
| When he asks why the school is repeatedly breaking the (second) contract, they just throw any excuse they can think of at him, no matter how stupid and/or false it is. When he tries to find out what the law says, people give him the run-around as often as they can. The government doesn't put out any notices saying (in non-official languages) "If you can't read this, please call this number for help." When he finds a group of Chinese speakers at the police station, they just laugh him out of the building. |
Dealing with the authorities in China is almost an art form. It is frustrating and time consuming. This is a fact and although it is improving I think that it will be a number of years until the way the government works here will compare to how things work back home. That said, we foreigners do have rights and the authorities can help us to enforce these rights. My advice is that you need to know what outcome you want and what the legislation dictates if you want your efforts to be fruitful. You need to basically tell the authorities what they need to do, and don�t be afraid to go up the chain of command.
As for the laughing, again this is a cultural thing. Chinese people laugh when they are embarrassed. This can of course be very frustrating when you are not in a good mood, but if you understand that they are laughing because they feel uncomfortable then you get the idea that you are impressing upon them the fact that they should be embarrassed. I hope that this makes sense.
| Mysterious Mark wrote: |
| Eventually he realizes that he actually is despised for being a "foreign devil" and doesn't want to take it any more, no matter how idealistic he used to be about bridging cultural gaps, so he tries to contact the media about these racist violations of his human rights etc., and they won't touch the story with a 20 foot poll... |
Sounds like culture shock to me. Don�t worry. We all go through this. Those that stay tend to get over it.
| Mysterious Mark wrote: |
| But if you wouldn't tolerate certain behaviour in your own country on the grounds that it's downright nasty, despicable, unfair, rude, hurtful, etc., being away from home doesn't necessarily mean that you should suddenly tolerate such things. |
If I had a Chinese friend back home who felt this way about their time in my country then I would embarrassed. In all honesty though the only advice that I could offer this person is that they may want to head home. I mean honestly, many foreigners like living in China and just take problems in their stride. This does not make these individuals somehow defective, nor does it make them any better than those that can�t handle being here. At the end of the day though, if someone is really this unhappy with the way things are here or anywhere else then that individual probably needs to make a decision to return home as their circumstances are not suitable for them.
| Mysterious Mark wrote: |
| Foreign teachers don't always get the benefits they're apparently entitled to. Sometimes they get nothing but a salary and have extra expenses they aren't even supposed to have, like visas and "deposits". On the other hand, Chinese teachers sometimes get bonuses through the roof: housing, food, travel expenses, special overtime pay, holiday bonuses, an end of year bonus equivalent to a full year's salary, etc. |
I certainly would not claim that every teacher gets every entitlement, but I believe that on the whole a great majority of us get what we are entitled to even if we have to work on the school to get it.
Are you suggesting that some schools freely give benefits to their Chinese staff but refuse these benefits of their foreign teaching staff? Surely it is a case of some schools are better than others, and it is not such a racial issue. If anything the race card generally comes up trumps for foreigners here as I am convinced that we get far more benefits on the whole than local workers.
Now I'm not a social scientist, so I wouldn't claim to know how common this sort of package is for Chinese teachers as compared to having to fend for themselves on low salaries (which some say is far more common, though how they would know is another question), but then it should also be noted that most of them have local networks of friends and family to help them out, and most of them don't have higher prices, language barriers etc. in their daily lives.
I enjoyed reading your post Mark. I certainly appreciate your perspective and in many ways it mirrors my own experiences over the years. Hopefully it will be beneficial for everyone to read the two differing perspectives and decide for themselves where they want to be. |
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checkmate
Joined: 22 May 2005
Posts: 55
Location: Shenzhen. China
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| Posted: Mon Feb 13, 2006 8:26 am Post subject: Insightful responses |
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Mark and Clarke. your comments were both insightful and extremely helpful so thank you.
to tofuman I found your comments to be interesting. Especially the tourist thing. After living in China for 2 years, having a Chinese wife of 5 years I am perplexed that my comments make me sound like a F.O.B. tourist.
When we visit my wife's hometown they have an outhouse which I do use but its not so comfortable for me due to a slight back injury in my go hard or go home days as a youth. BUT this toilet didnt even flush and for me well..... thats a bit off.
As for the cooking utensils. It doesnt matter whether you cook western or Chinese food something, anything to cook in would have been nice.
For me its not about missing mommy's cooking or the comforts of home or even the salary.
A school enters into a contract of friendly cooperation and mutual understanding. (Thats what it says)
The teacher (Party B) is required to provide certain services to the school
at an agreed price and with certain conditions, apartment, visa, etc (Whatever that may be) according to school requirements.
The school (Party A) is required meet the agreed price and conditions according to the contract.
Sounds pretty simple HOWEVER when the school fails to adhere to the conditions already agreed upon therein lies the difficulty.
Especially if they supposedly have had previous experience with foreign teachers.
If I invited a vegetarian to my house for dinner and said dont worry I know about vegetarians and I will provide only vege dishes for you but when he or she came I only gave them meat and they complained what happens. Are they whingers or should they accept it and say nothing.
Its not about salary, sit down or squat toilets, working good or bad TV's or even whether or not there are cooking utensils.
Its about integrity. If I enter in to an agreed contract then is it fair that if I am required to uphold my contractual obligations then the other party to the contract is required to do the same.
I think even in China this is a reasonable request. No excuses, no B/S.
If a contract is agreed upon and signed then each party to it is obliged to meet their requirements. If either party does not fully uinderstand their requirements then why sign it. This seems to justify the misunderstanding cliche. Usually after the teacher has signed the contract and arrived in country.
Cultural differences aside renagging or altering contract terms after the fact seems inherently deceptive whether intentional or otherwise.
claiming misunderstanding seems to me like changing the rules midway through the game.
For those who speak Chinese. Have you ever had someone come to you and ask for money or buy DVD or something and even though you understand what they want you say sorry I dont speak Chinese and I dont understand what you said and walk away. Well on occasion I have and you may ask why. Because I didnt want to be bothered with it. Where did I learn this skill. Here in China because regarding contracts many administrators have applied the same thing to me when they didnt want to do something.
I suppose after my incoherent ramblings it would be nice to enter in to a contract with a school that adheres to it without the constant battle to attain things already agreed to.
and this is a good place to spit the dummy sometimes. |
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7969
Joined: 26 Mar 2003
Posts: 5782
Location: Coastal Guangdong
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| Posted: Mon Feb 13, 2006 10:15 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
checkmate wrote:
I have been in China for 2 years teaching. I was wondering. What would happen if we treated Chinese employees the way we are treated here. In my hometown 12% of the population are Chinese. They only speak their own language, live together in the same area, shop in other Chinese stores but they can get all their normal food there. They have their own doctors and even schools. They protested and got government representation at local and national level.
I understand why you have made this analogy but I question the validity of it. |
the validity of the post is clear if one refers to the original post on "get real this is china" or whatever it was called. that post denounced (as i remember) foreigners for wanting to be near KFC, mcdonalds and other western amenities that can be found in china, saying maybe these foreigners should have stayed home if this is what they really wanted in china. the analogy is that chinese people immigrate to other countries and do the same thing, basically make their lives in a foreign country but making it in toronto or san francisco's chinatown.
7969 |
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checkmate
Joined: 22 May 2005
Posts: 55
Location: Shenzhen. China
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| Posted: Mon Feb 13, 2006 10:29 am Post subject: |
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Hey.Now there's an idea i never considered. Having a laowai town just like the many chinatowns across the world.
do you think the government would allow so many laowai's to congregate in 1 place without thinking it was civil disobedience.
In my country there is no official China town but due to their ever increasing numbers they assimilated 2 suburbs and dominate by sheer numbers the local inhabitants.
Similar to colonization. |
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kev7161
Joined: 06 Feb 2004
Posts: 5880
Location: Suzhou, China
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| Posted: Mon Feb 13, 2006 10:33 am Post subject: |
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To date, I've worked for two private schools and, part-time, for two language mills. Long-timers know of my problems with my previous school, but it was almost all classroom related. None of the schools I worked for (and currently work for now) ever short-changed me, gave me less than what was agreed upon in the original contract, bullied me into working extra hours, or provided me with bad accomodations. I always got paid on time and am currently not paying a dime in utilities. I'm also currently enjoying dishes and utensils left behind by the previous tenant. Also, in regards to teaching, each and every school has provided me with adequate teaching supplies (textbooks, DVD players, televisions, tape players, etc.), sometimes within a day or two of asking if I was found wanting.
This is not to say I've not had problems here in China, lord knows. Do a search on some of my rants and you'll see (especially considering one certain summer English camp program). However, when it came to schools, either I was pretty thorough when it came to questioning the details of my contract and/or renegotiating or I've been pretty lucky. The point is that there are a lot of schools out there just simply looking for a good teacher. They're not "out to get us" but I think are a little shocked when they have to start dealing with our western-style demands (I have a couple of contract additions when I start negotiating next year's contract in March).
I'm certainly not an apologist for some of China and its citizens, just saying that it's impossible to make a blanket statement about all schools, FAOs, administrators . . . even teachers and students. |
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clark.w.griswald
Joined: 06 Dec 2004
Posts: 2056
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| Posted: Mon Feb 13, 2006 10:57 am Post subject: Re: Insightful responses |
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Thanks 7969. I didn't see that earlier thread and hence missed the meaning of this thread title 
| checkmate wrote: |
If I enter in to an agreed contract then is it fair that if I am required to uphold my contractual obligations then the other party to the contract is required to do the same.
I think even in China this is a reasonable request. No excuses, no B/S.
If a contract is agreed upon and signed then each party to it is obliged to meet their requirements. If either party does not fully uinderstand their requirements then why sign it. |
I agree 100% with your statement above.
My involvement in this post was not to suggest that 'cultural differences' are an excuse to avoid contract obligations, but more as an answer to the suggestion that schools may behave badly or dishonestly.
Out of curiosity, and feel free not to answer as I am not trying to pry, but what were the parts of the contract that your school failed to fulfill? |
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