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glennfry
Joined: 07 Apr 2005
Posts: 4
Location: China
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 Posted: Mon Feb 13, 2006 11:24 pm Post subject: Contracts & Keep the Information Flowing |
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rocknroll, so what school was this? I think this is a crucial service of this board.
Sigmoid, I don 't think it matters whether rocknroll is not a native speaker of English. A contract is a contract. If they no longer wish him to teach, they should use the provisions in the contract and not delay payment time after time. |
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clark.w.griswald
Joined: 06 Dec 2004
Posts: 2056
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| Posted: Mon Feb 13, 2006 11:40 pm Post subject: |
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| Babala wrote: |
| Yes vikdk, why not look posters such as myself and Gregor. Do you ever see us posting about mistreatment, getting ripped off... The answer would be no. I am not saying that every chain school is great but there are good ones out there so let's not lump them all together. |
This is a good point.
Some people on this board repeatedly suggest that all chain schools are bad and all are out to rip teachers off etc.
But there are members of this forum who work for chains now and others that have worked for them before. Not all of them have enjoyed their experiences with a chain school but I have not seen any of these people mention that they were ripped off or not paid for the work that they did.
This simple fact seems to call into question the validity of the opposing suggestion (I call it a suggestion rather than an argument as these people have not really ever supported their opinion with anything). |
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englishgibson
Joined: 09 Mar 2005
Posts: 4345
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| Posted: Wed Feb 15, 2006 5:43 am Post subject: Employer says " No money to pay you " |
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Sure Clark W Griswald some people on boards suggest chain schools are bad, but then some people with no experience about those schools suggest otherwise and you are one of them. As bias as you are with your buxiban site carrying all kinds of schools on it and with little experience in some chain schools, it is hard to believe that you have objective views when often getting involved commenting on schools/teachers/job seekers issues.
Respectfully, respect the ones that have had bad experiences, stop discrediting them and stay away from issues you know little about.
By the way, has the buxiban got an ESL forum?
Cheers and beers |
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rocknroll
Joined: 17 Jul 2005
Posts: 41
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| Posted: Wed Feb 15, 2006 2:40 pm Post subject: |
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| OP: Maybe the school is not happy because you're not a native speaker of English. |
 You are talking to a native speaker. Are you sure you were trying to help ?
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rocknroll, so what school was this? I think this is a crucial service of this board. |
I would mention the name when it would be necessary. I wouldn't want to spoil their name or be quick to give bad name to school. They don't have any problem with my teaching or me.I got my salary and it's not a private but public school.  |
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clark.w.griswald
Joined: 06 Dec 2004
Posts: 2056
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| Posted: Wed Feb 15, 2006 3:08 pm Post subject: Re: Employer says " No money to pay you " |
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| englishgibson wrote: |
| As bias as you are with your buxiban site carrying all kinds of schools on it and with little experience in some chain schools, it is hard to believe that you have objective views when often getting involved commenting on schools/teachers/job seekers issues. |
Firstly Englishgibson, you know nothing about me nor my experiences with schools. As such your comments above are your opinion and are not represented by any factual basis.
Secondly the comments that you refer to are made by teachers in the schools that are commented about. Therefore if you are questioning the validity of these comments then you are questioning the information that these individuals with first hand experience are providing. You are not questioning me as I don't write the comments - I am merely part of a group of foreign teachers who collect and archive these comments.
Personally I find comments from people such as yourself to be...well...rather boring. You spend so much time trying to discredit the person making the post that you fail to even read what that person is posting. I suggest that you concentrate more on explaining why you believe that my opinions are wrong, and less time trying to discredit me as a person.
| englishgibson wrote: |
| Respectfully, respect the ones that have had bad experiences, stop discrediting them and stay away from issues you know little about. |
I don't attempt to discredit them at. When I have an opinion that differs from someone on this forum I simply state my position and ask the person with opposing views questions about why they hold the opinions that they hold. This is afterall a discussion forum and what I am doing is discussing subjects that others raise.
That person can then either state their opinion, as some people do, and show that there are two perfectly valid opinions, neither of which is right or wrong, and from that information newbies can draw what they want.
Another option is for those people to abandon any discussion about the topic and start attacking the person who has an opinion that varies from their own by raising issues outside of the discussion.
I know which type of poster I have more respect for. |
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englishgibson
Joined: 09 Mar 2005
Posts: 4345
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| Posted: Thu Feb 16, 2006 10:32 am Post subject: Employer says " No money to pay you " |
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And there we go ......
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you know nothing about me nor my experiences with schools.
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Well, we know little about you, because you don't like talking about yourself. But we know that you are involved in Buxiban site that advertises schools in China as well as Taiwan and we know that you jump into discussions when an unfortunate individual posts about his/her bad experiences. Yes, we know that at times you give good leads, but we also know that at times you try to discredit that unfortunate individual or your participation is bias or manipulative.
SO, HAVE YOU ALWAYS GOT PAID ON TIME MR.? HAVE YOU ALWAYS HAD YOUR WORKING DOCUMENTS IN ORDER? HAVE YOU ALWAYS LIKED YOUR EMPLOYER? HAVE YOU EVER WARNED FORUMS PARTICIPANTS OR ANY ESL TEACHERS OF ANY PROBLEMS IN CHINA OR TAIWAN?
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I don't attempt to discredit them at.
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Ohh, yes you do! And you base it on your opinion, not experiences.
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When I have an opinion that differs from someone on this forum I simply state my position and ask the person with opposing views questions about why they hold the opinions that they hold. This is afterall a discussion forum and what I am doing is discussing subjects that others raise.
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Now, that's a good point and I must agree with you on that. However, if there is no experience that you hold in a certain school or franchise, you shall not get into discussions too far there and neither take your opinion with you in discussions there too. And under no circumstances you shall try to manipulate that forum on your behalf, even though we are enjoying freedom discussing on. You know what I am talking about, but if you want to discuss this further you may PM me.
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Another option is for those people to abandon any discussion about the topic and start attacking the person who has an opinion that varies from their own by raising issues outside of the discussion.
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Trolling is a problem, isn't it? Attacking another user for his/her opinion is unacceptable, isn't it? There are many forms of attacks on these forums at times, aren't there? At times, action results in reaction, but is that an excuse? And then, reaction on reaction and there we go. Most of us are presumed accademic employees, ESLers with degrees (educated), however at times forums do not show that, do they?
I'LL STOP RIGHT HERE WITH YOU!
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I know which type of poster I have more respect for.
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I bet you do!
Peace to all (even Clark W Griswald)
And
Cheers and beers |
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Babala
Joined: 28 Jan 2005
Posts: 1303
Location: Henan
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| Posted: Thu Feb 16, 2006 11:14 am Post subject: |
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EG,
To be fair, there are several posters out there who bash EF and other training centers without ever having worked for one and you don't seem to mind their lack of experience... |
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Louras
Joined: 24 Nov 2004
Posts: 288
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| Posted: Fri Feb 17, 2006 1:27 am Post subject: posters |
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Yeah, there are other posters bashing FT's, but none so booooriiing........
I'd like to see how many quotes clarckie can get from my posting. |
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KarenB
Joined: 20 Sep 2005
Posts: 227
Location: Hainan
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| Posted: Fri Feb 17, 2006 2:56 am Post subject: |
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Getting back to the original subject, even public schools occasionally are negligent about paying on time.
I've worked for the same government school for 4 years, and up til now they've almost always paid on time, full amount, no problem. But in the past few months, there seems to be a money problem. In December, everyone -- Chinese and foreign -- was paid about 10 days late. Same in January, which created a problem since we were getting ready to travel for Spring Festival. This month, we've yet to be paid, and our normal pay day is the 10th. Also, no Spring Festival bonus, and just 300 RMB bonus for start of new semester. Sooo...what I've heard is that there was some money problem that eventually is supposed to be fixed, but until that time everything will be tight. Since we've been here 4 years, we'll just ride it out, but it will certainly be a consideration for renewing our contract for another year.
For the original poster, I think I'd check with your Chinese colleagues and try to find out what the scoop is. Is this just a temporary glitch, or do they think the school is going down? Even government schools are going down in some places. |
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HunanForeignGuy
Joined: 05 Jan 2006
Posts: 989
Location: Shanghai, PRC
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| Posted: Fri Feb 17, 2006 3:06 am Post subject: Re: Employer says " No money to pay you " |
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| englishgibson wrote: |
And there we go ......
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you know nothing about me nor my experiences with schools.
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Well, we know little about you, because you don't like talking about yourself. But we know that you are involved in Buxiban site that advertises schools in China as well as Taiwan and we know that you jump into discussions when an unfortunate individual posts about his/her bad experiences. Yes, we know that at times you give good leads, but we also know that at times you try to discredit that unfortunate individual or your participation is bias or manipulative.
SO, HAVE YOU ALWAYS GOT PAID ON TIME MR.? HAVE YOU ALWAYS HAD YOUR WORKING DOCUMENTS IN ORDER? HAVE YOU ALWAYS LIKED YOUR EMPLOYER? HAVE YOU EVER WARNED FORUMS PARTICIPANTS OR ANY ESL TEACHERS OF ANY PROBLEMS IN CHINA OR TAIWAN?
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I don't attempt to discredit them at.
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Ohh, yes you do! And you base it on your opinion, not experiences.
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When I have an opinion that differs from someone on this forum I simply state my position and ask the person with opposing views questions about why they hold the opinions that they hold. This is afterall a discussion forum and what I am doing is discussing subjects that others raise.
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Now, that's a good point and I must agree with you on that. However, if there is no experience that you hold in a certain school or franchise, you shall not get into discussions too far there and neither take your opinion with you in discussions there too. And under no circumstances you shall try to manipulate that forum on your behalf, even though we are enjoying freedom discussing on. You know what I am talking about, but if you want to discuss this further you may PM me.
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Another option is for those people to abandon any discussion about the topic and start attacking the person who has an opinion that varies from their own by raising issues outside of the discussion.
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Trolling is a problem, isn't it? Attacking another user for his/her opinion is unacceptable, isn't it? There are many forms of attacks on these forums at times, aren't there? At times, action results in reaction, but is that an excuse? And then, reaction on reaction and there we go. Most of us are presumed accademic employees, ESLers with degrees (educated), however at times forums do not show that, do they?
I'LL STOP RIGHT HERE WITH YOU!
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I know which type of poster I have more respect for.
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I bet you do!
Peace to all (even Clark W Griswald)
And
Cheers and beers |
First, I must say that I completely concur with EnglishGibson here. I am glad that you wrote what you wrote. Someone needed to write it. Someone needed to say it. Thank you again.
Next to the poster whose pay has been late at a government school for four months, I can only say this. By allowing a precedence to be created, you have acquiesced to it and all of the conditions therein.
I was in one government that paid regularly until a certain moment when things started to be become rather "tardy" shall we say. The first time -- no problem. The second time -- NONE of the foreign teachers showed up in class the next day. NONE. Strange, somehow, how we were all paid by 10:30 a.m. of that very morning when no one showed up. And EVEN stranger, it NEVER happened again, at least NOT to the foreign teachers..and neither did it ever reoccur in subsequent years...too many telephone calls, I think, to the Administration by concerned parents as to why the foreign teachers were not in class. |
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cubit
Joined: 04 Dec 2005
Posts: 117
Location: Changchun
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| Posted: Fri Feb 17, 2006 7:59 pm Post subject: |
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My girlfriend and I have worked for three language mills (between us, not always working together). I have found that, though there are some disadvantages (subservience to parental whims, travel-time between branches, apathetic attitudes of foreign teachers beacause they don't work at a "real"school), none of the disadvantages have ever stemmed from lack of payment, percieved discrepancies in bills or fines, or any of the other complaints that have come up regarding training centers vs. public schools.
Granted none of them have been chain schools the like of EF, but similar business models when compared to the branch level. |
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Sgt Killjoy
Joined: 26 Jun 2004
Posts: 438
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| Posted: Sat Feb 18, 2006 1:29 pm Post subject: |
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| I had a simliar problem with a school not paying me, but it was in Mexico. I did the best thing someone can do in my situation. I took it on the chin, there was no way to get even or anything. Bad publicity is all we teachers can pay them back with. |
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Sgt Killjoy
Joined: 26 Jun 2004
Posts: 438
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| Posted: Sat Feb 18, 2006 1:29 pm Post subject: |
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| I might add that if schools weren't so crazy about getting money then there wouldnt be so many problems with paying teachers. |
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clark.w.griswald
Joined: 06 Dec 2004
Posts: 2056
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| Posted: Sat Feb 18, 2006 3:45 pm Post subject: Re: Employer says " No money to pay you " |
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| englishgibson wrote: |
| Well, we know little about you, because you don't like talking about yourself. |
I don't talk about myself as I don't consider who I am to be relevant to the discussion. The discussion is not about me it is about what I post. In fact one of the rules of this board I believe is to discuss the post not the person making the post.
| englishgibson wrote: |
| Yes, we know that at times you give good leads, but we also know that at times you try to discredit that unfortunate individual or your participation is bias or manipulative. |
I have never attempted to discredit anyone.
I raise questions that I have. If the person is unable to answer these questions and this fact undermines their post then it seems to me that they have discredited themselves. I don't see it as a case of discrediting people but more of trying to get to the bottom of things.
| englishgibson wrote: |
| SO, HAVE YOU ALWAYS GOT PAID ON TIME MR.? |
Of course not. I haven't always been paid on time but I have always been paid. What does this question really have to do with my posts on this board anyway? I have never stated nor suggested that everything is perfect here in China employment wise, I have merely disagreed with people who post such stuff as 'all schools are out to rip us off'. They have never ripped me off which in itself seems to invalidate the suggestion that ALL schools rip us off.
| englishgibson wrote: |
| HAVE YOU ALWAYS HAD YOUR WORKING DOCUMENTS IN ORDER? |
Yes. This is something that I believe strongly in and it has paid dividends for me. Quite possibly the reason that I have never been ripped off by a school is that I have never worked illegally for a school and I encourage all teachers to bear this in mind. If a school is willing to employ you illegally then what is there to stop them from treating you badly as they obviously have no respect for the law.
| englishgibson wrote: |
| HAVE YOU ALWAYS LIKED YOUR EMPLOYER? |
Of course not. But then I don't need to like them. They are not my friend, they are my employer. Again, what does this have to do with my posts on this forum? I have never stated that all employers are our bestest buddies.
| englishgibson wrote: |
| HAVE YOU EVER WARNED FORUMS PARTICIPANTS OR ANY ESL TEACHERS OF ANY PROBLEMS IN CHINA OR TAIWAN? |
The fact that you even ask this question shows how unfamiliar you must be with my posts and the website that I am involved with. In answer to your question I believe that I have posted a lot of information over the years about what to watch out for when teaching English in China and Taiwan. How about you?
| englishgibson wrote: |
| However, if there is no experience that you hold in a certain school or franchise, you shall not get into discussions too far there and neither take your opinion with you in discussions there too. And under no circumstances you shall try to manipulate that forum on your behalf, even though we are enjoying freedom discussing on. You know what I am talking about, but if you want to discuss this further you may PM me. |
Actually I don't have an idea as to what you mean by the above!
| englishgibson wrote: |
| Attacking another user for his/her opinion is unacceptable, isn't it? |
I just see these attacks as pointless.
This is a discussion forum where people can come to discuss issues. I never make my posts personal in nature as I consider it inappropriate and against the rules of this forum.
I make no apologies for disagreeing with users of this forum from time to time but I always keep my posts within certain bounds of dignity.
As I have often said, argue the posts not the person making the posts!
| Babala wrote: |
| To be fair, there are several posters out there who bash EF and other training centers without ever having worked for one and you don't seem to mind their lack of experience... |
Good point Babala. It is interesting how readily such facts are overlooked in the effort to attack others.
By the way, I have never admitted to working at EF nor to not having worked at EF. Quite honestly I don't see the relevance of this as my posts are not made around my experiences with EF but instead the logic of the discussion. My point about EF has always been that it is a chain school made up of individual franchises, each of which offers different experiences to it's teacher. Whether I am the owner of EF, a loyal teacher, a critic, or someone who has never even walked passed an EF school, surely it is what I say about the school that should be discussed, not my level of involvement with that school. |
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tofuman
Joined: 02 Jul 2004
Posts: 937
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| Posted: Sat Feb 18, 2006 6:21 pm Post subject: |
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Clark, I took a look at your sight and although not a member and therefore denied access to the interesting stuff, it looked good. I considered registering and noted the disclaimer pledging confidentiality.
In light of the recent betrayal by Yahoo, resulting in a prison sentence for a Chinese national, what would "Buxiban" do if the authorities said, " Give us a name or we block your sight in China?" I might ask the same of Dave's. We actually have no way of knowing who gave us up. It could happen quietly. The authorities note a poster, go to the host, get a name and then blacklist the poster so his visa will not be renewed.
Perhaps people even feed the authorities names of suspected anti Chinese posters in exchange for unknown favors or rewards, such as a exit visa for a "pretty Chinese girl," access to better brothels, or other fleshly indulgences.
How about it, Clark? Have you been contacted by the authorities and offered access to better brothels in exchange for the identity of someone tarring a government school? If so, can you tell us where the brothel is located?
Last edited by tofuman on Sun Feb 19, 2006 6:51 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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