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Mysterious Mark
Joined: 15 Dec 2004
Posts: 121
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 Posted: Mon Feb 13, 2006 1:41 pm Post subject: Re: Referring to Get Real this is China |
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| checkmate wrote: |
| Hey.Now there's an idea i never considered. Having a laowai town just like the many chinatowns across the world. |
I suppose they did exist, until the late 1940's....
| clark.w.griswald wrote: |
| I can�t disagree with you logic Mark, but I still think that things aren�t exactly as you have suggested. |
First I think I should emphasize that I constructed an intentionally pessimistic scenario incorporating the negative experiences of many people, without any positives to balance it out, but all of the things I mentioned have happened to foreigners in China. However, the point of my turning-the-tables rant was not to rehash the complaints of foreigners here but to say, what if these things happened elsewhere? (Would they even be considered plausible? Would people stand for them? What would happen to parties involved?)
I realized after finishing that post that the way it reads, it's difficult for those of us who've been in or talking about China for a while to really distance ourselves from an in-China point of view, because the pattern is so familiar and so different from what happens elsewhere. I think the core of what I was saying is that FT's are a phenomenon that doesn't exist in the West in my experience, because the way I always understood it, teachers are teachers, and it doesn't matter what race, gender, nationality, etc. they have. Nationality can reasonably be expected to affect certain government-related issues like taxes and to suggest greater knowledge of certain specialized subjects, but China has a whole different way of looking at the issue, and the way things currently stand, this phenomenon has an overall negative impact on education and the wellbeing of various people.
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| What does this have to do with the teacher? Honestly, what does it matter how much the students are paying for a class compared to how much the teacher is getting paid for teaching it? The teacher�s only interest in financial matters as I see it is to ensure that he or she is getting paid an amount for his or her time that they are happy with. It seems that teachers who get caught up in worrying about what others are getting paid or how much the school is or isn�t making are leading themselves down the path of future resentment. |
That part isn't directly relevant to the teacher. One way in which it can be relevant is that it shapes others' perceptions of foreigners. Chinese have been known to think that all westerners are rich *beep* who can travel everywhere they want and do everything they want and didn't have to pay for anything in their lives. These same people have also been known to be shocked at hearing of foreingers having large student loans to pay off, thinking that spending money on a plane ticket when you're in debt is just not right, and so on. And FT's are sometimes told that they're "not allowed" to tell anyone how much money they earn, not even other FT's (from other countries/of other races), so as not to foster jealousy. (It may of course turn out that some of the other FT's who supposedly earn less actually earn more, and that some of the Chinese have imagined that the FT's earn even more than they actually do.)
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| I believe that almost without exception foreign teacher accommodation is much better than the average housing in that city. |
Maybe I've seen more of the exception than the rule. I was drawing from my and others' experiences of seeing apartments lived in by Chinese with much lower salaries.
Of course, in a country with as large a population as China and probably a different philosophy of processing statistics, it's easy to misunderstand the significance of certain official and unofficial averages.
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I have never understood this complaint either.
How do you know that you are being ripped off ten fold if you never see the bills? |
Again, this is drawn from real life. First of all, people don't know if a bill collector will show up or if they need to go somewhere like a bank or an office to pay a bill, and people generally don't want their telephone, electricity, water, etc. to be cut off without warning because they neglected to pay their bills, so that's why people ask. A true story: two FT's shared an apartment. One day a water company employee showed up to collect the water bill. FT #1 paid it, something like 28 yuan, and got a receipt. Later the FAO came over unannounced, saw the receipt, picked it up, and asked, "Do you and [your roommate] have a shower every day?!" "Yes." "Ah, no wonder the water bill is so high!" The FAO then announced that the paper was a bill, not a receipt, that the amount was exactly 10 times what it actually was, and that no amount of pretending to have already paid the bill would get them out of it. The FT was too polite to grab the receipt out of the FAO's hands. I don't remember what happened in the end; the money was probably taken out of their salaries. Completely fake bills are sometimes invented. It may not be normal, but it happens.
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| Mysterious Mark wrote: |
| He can't walk down the street without people saying "Chinaman! Knee how, Chinaman! Ha ha ha!" Everywhere he goes, people try to cheat him, even in the most ridiculous ways. When he tries to have a social life, the thugs in the local bar threaten to beat him up for simply being there, thinking that he's obviously trying to steal their women and pollute the gene pool. Meanwhile, other women try to seduce him in the hopes of getting rich... |
We all know for a fact that there are certain areas of all of our cities back home where Chinese people would face the same problems. Fortunately most westerners are more culturally sensitive in this regard such that most of us are not so overt in our reaction to those who are different. |
All of our cities back home? I do agree that racism is a big problem in some western cities, but it's no longer considered acceptable by society as a whole. Haven't you ever told Chinese that they won't be "knee-howed" and stared at if they travel to the West? One of the major differences of course is that western cities have had Asian residents for so long that there's nothing to stare at anymore, but even in a small town where a different skin colour is still a novelty, it's accepted wisdom that it's rude to stare and much, much ruder to utter a racist word. If I recall correctly, the producers of The Simpsons cut a brief sequence from an episode in which Mr. Burns, riding in a rickshaw pulled by Smithers, calls him a "Chinaman", after a serious complaint from an Asian anti-defamation organization. (For anyone who doesn't know, Burns is a villain and Smithers is white.)
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| Dealing with the authorities in China is almost an art form. It is frustrating and time consuming. This is a fact and although it is improving I think that it will be a number of years until the way the government works here will compare to how things work back home. That said, we foreigners do have rights and the authorities can help us to enforce these rights. My advice is that you need to know what outcome you want and what the legislation dictates if you want your efforts to be fruitful. You need to basically tell the authorities what they need to do, and don�t be afraid to go up the chain of command. |
I do agree that we should give the system a chance (contrary to the views of some defeatists who insist that China "isn't a legal country") and that we sometimes need to try different strategies in order to allow the system to work, but I was actually referring to instances of the authorities being in cahoots with the bosses and having no regard for law or morality, as described by others.
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| Are you suggesting that some schools freely give benefits to their Chinese staff but refuse these benefits of their foreign teaching staff? |
Yes.
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| Surely it is a case of some schools are better than others, and it is not such a racial issue. If anything the race card generally comes up trumps for foreigners here as I am convinced that we get far more benefits on the whole than local workers. |
Well, the Chinese tend to be pragmatic, so the ones among them who are inclined to take whatever advantages they can will take advantage of their compatriots as well, to varying extents, and they have different expectations of what foreigners will tolerate or be blind to, so it can be difficult to tell when racism and xenophobia are genuine factors in the equation, but sometimes they definitely are, and at other times people may be overwhelmed and imagine more racism than there actually is.
Anyway thanks for your comments. |
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Roger
Joined: 19 Jan 2003
Posts: 9138
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| Posted: Mon Feb 13, 2006 3:13 pm Post subject: |
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Clark has already said the obvious; I would like to add but one observation:
China welcomes FTs as a token of goodwill so young Westerners can come and experience China without spending their own money!
No Chinese will be welcomed anywhere in the world this way! Chinese have to have skills, professional backgrounds and money - a lot.
The case of the OP is hnot a drastic one: the school pays him well, he gets basic accommodation and supplies. It's not a dream situation but he has little reason to cry wolf so far!
Chinese have to buy their own home furniture and other stuff. |
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vikdk
Joined: 25 Jun 2003
Posts: 1676
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| Posted: Mon Feb 13, 2006 3:53 pm Post subject: |
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| China welcomes FTs as a token of goodwill so young Westerners can come and experience China without spending their own money! |
I suppose those nice black saloon cars cars, that the owners of the mills drive about in, are also a "token of goodwill" to those good-natured folk who go to all that trouble to provide employment for those young westerners  |
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checkmate
Joined: 22 May 2005
Posts: 55
Location: Shenzhen. China
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| Posted: Mon Feb 13, 2006 6:22 pm Post subject: Reply to Clarke |
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Hi Clarke.
The violations were all regarding the state of the accommodation and my view was if they are going to violate the small things then it will only continue to increase with time.
Basically a fully functional apartment not necessarily fully furnished. So a toilet that has no flushing, a cooker with no gas or any cooking utensils, appliances with plug that dont match the sockets, a bed with no blankets, no A/C, no phone, no internet which I asked to add to the contract but I would pay the usage, windows with no curtains considering my apartment was directly level and inline with the classes across the road about 30 meters. The contract did say they would supply certain items some of which they did but it didnt say they had to work. Now as I said I was fortunate because I have my own apartment in Shenzhen but the Canadian teacher who had arrived 3 days before me had the same problems and she couldnt go anywhere. The school took her passport to do her work visa.
I read another post which said the Chinese invite westerners here so they can travel and not spend their own money. My question is do they come to travel or to teach. The same poster says that we do not afford Chinese the same courtesy. Well in my country they use to but they stopped. Why. Simple economic refugees. First 1 comes then the wife, kids, then the parents and eventually a large extended family who speak no English, have no skills, but become reliant on the generosity of our social system for medical, and social and economical support. My country has 4 million people and my city has just of 1 million with 12% of my city;s population being Chinese. I love China very much and since being here I have contributed to society here, didnt break the law, get no government hand outs to help me and supported my wife and myself.
Im ure there are basic ethical principles that apply everywhere regardless of where you are from but it seems that here it doest seem so
important with the excuse being "We are Chinese". The sad part is that small countries like mine are learning to emulate China. What will China say if my country started to treat the Chinese teachers there like we are treated here. Already Chinese nationals in my country complained about non Chinese speaking doctors, no assistance to help them intergrate and guess what. The Government has funded more programs to help them. now you can even do a driver licence in Chinese.
So I still think it is about integrity. does its concept change from nation to nation and should we do unto others as has been done to us.
Just a fair deal agreed to by both parties and compliance. Is that too much to ask.[/list] |
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clark.w.griswald
Joined: 06 Dec 2004
Posts: 2056
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| Posted: Mon Feb 13, 2006 11:31 pm Post subject: Re: Reply to Clarke |
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As I stated in my earlier post, I totally agree with the notion that the whole point of a contract is so that each party knows what to expect. If one or both parties fail to abide by the contract then what is the point of having that agreement in the first place.
In your example though I really feel that your problems were not contract breach but instead differing expectations. I think that the school was wrong not to have done more to meet your needs. There is no doubt in my mind that if the school had accomodated what seem like quite reasonable requests then they would have had a happy and loyal teacher. Unfortunately far sightendness does not seem to be a strong point for Chinese.
| checkmate wrote: |
| The violations were all regarding the state of the accommodation and my view was if they are going to violate the small things then it will only continue to increase with time. |
So your opinion was a pre-emptive one. You are not alone in taking these sorts of pre-emptive actions, but it seems to me to go against our whole philosophy that we should work towards a professional arrangement with our employers just as they should treat us professionally.
| checkmate wrote: |
| Basically a fully functional apartment not necessarily fully furnished. So a toilet that has no flushing, a cooker with no gas or any cooking utensils, appliances with plug that dont match the sockets, a bed with no blankets, no A/C, no phone, no internet which I asked to add to the contract but I would pay the usage, windows with no curtains considering my apartment was directly level and inline with the classes across the road about 30 meters. The contract did say they would supply certain items some of which they did but it didnt say they had to work. |
If the contract stated that you would get all of these things but after you signed they then refused to give them to you then this would clearly be a case of a school making promises that it fails to keep.
It seems to me that in this case the school either never considered that you may need assistance with these things, or they just made a conscious decision not to get involved with these things.
I fully appreciate how difficult and costly it can be to head out yourself and equip your accomodation with all these little things. It would be very helpful for a local staff member to take your list and prepare these things on your behalf and a really good school would do this. If your school failed to offer this assistance then it does not speak highly of their understanding of foreign teacher needs, but it does not make them wrong.
Many of the things that you have mentioned were not available are really personal items. Many people don't like to share cutlery, crockery, and bedding with other they don't know. Therefore it seems reasonable to me that teachers can buy there own such items. These are also the sorts of items that tend to get lost, broken, stolen, and not replaced. I think that it is pretty common practice in these sorts of accomodation around the world for such items to not be included.
A broken toilet is of course unacceptable and hopefully the school would attend to this problem as a matter of urgency once you raise the issue with them. I know that not all schools would do so, but I believe that most would act promptly.
I am sure that a lot of foreign teachers can relate to exactly what yourself and Mark write. I include myself in this group. Despite my opposition to your opinion on the matter I do sympathize with your plight as it is a common one and a totally unneccessary one. Chinese people do need to lift their game and it is up to us, the current foreign teachers, to explain to them how to do this. |
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checkmate
Joined: 22 May 2005
Posts: 55
Location: Shenzhen. China
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| Posted: Tue Feb 14, 2006 5:03 am Post subject: |
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Hi clarke
thanks for your ensightful assessment.
For me it was simple. We had negotiated a contract with the school assuring me that they did have experience in dealing with foreign teachers. Perhaps I was at fault for not being explicit and although the things I mentioned may seem trivial my experience has shown me that if a school neglects these trivial things then it usually cascades to more serious things.
A question. If a teacher comes from outside China woud they bring things like blankets cutlery, pots and pans etc with them or would they expect them to be supplied at least paritally.
And my main point is the school was suppose to have had foreign teachers before.
Anywat again thanks for you comments which have only helped my understanding even more
谢谢我的旁有 |
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clark.w.griswald
Joined: 06 Dec 2004
Posts: 2056
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| Posted: Tue Feb 14, 2006 5:18 am Post subject: |
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| checkmate wrote: |
| We had negotiated a contract with the school assuring me that they did have experience in dealing with foreign teachers. |
Yes I agree that schools who have experience with past foreign teachers should know more about their needs. I believe that I mentioned this in my earlier post. I won't hazzard a guess as to why they did not learn from these past experiences, but I still don't see your situation as comprising a breach of contract.
Had you explicitly asked for the things that you were not given, and had the school agreed to supply these things but then failed to provide them then that is obviously a case of them breaking an agreement.
If however you assumed or believed that those things should have been supplied but they weren't then that is a difference of opinion and not a breach of contract.
| checkmate wrote: |
| If a teacher comes from outside China woud they bring things like blankets cutlery, pots and pans etc with them or would they expect them to be supplied at least paritally. |
I would think that buying these things locally would be much more sensible.
In some cases the school accomodation will be fully appointed with everything you need. In some cases previous teachers will leave things behind for you. In other cases the school will purchase some or all of your needs as per your request. In other cases you are on your own to purchase these personal use items. If it is such an issue for you or for other teachers then I would recommend adding such a question to your checklist when scoping out possible new schools as there does not seem to be a norm in this regard. |
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vikdk
Joined: 25 Jun 2003
Posts: 1676
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| Posted: Tue Feb 14, 2006 9:41 am Post subject: |
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| easiest way to get around these problems is to find that job in China - and surely even the venerable C could agree with the following - as far as contract stipulations in China are concerned, then the concept behind seeing is believing comes very much to the fore!!! |
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checkmate
Joined: 22 May 2005
Posts: 55
Location: Shenzhen. China
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| Posted: Wed Feb 15, 2006 12:50 pm Post subject: Thanks to everyone |
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Thanks to you all for your varied but always helpful comments and suggestions.
On the bright side I accepted another teaching position with a starting salary of 1500USD about 12000RMB per month.
There is no apartment but the salary enables me to look for one closer to the school. |
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Mysterious Mark
Joined: 15 Dec 2004
Posts: 121
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| Posted: Thu Feb 16, 2006 11:12 am Post subject: |
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Ha! Chinese driving tests in Kiwiland!?! I can understand and agree with things like medical care and legal services being made available in foreign languages, but I would never demand the right to do a driving test in English in China. If the government wants people to integrate then funding programmes to help them do so makes sense, but I would say the first priorities should be local language and cultural etiquette. (Then there's that other country - Sweden? - where in the name of integration they're promoting all-Arabic education in primary schools...)
Imo, the two most likely reasons why that school didn't (sufficiently) learn how to deal with foreigners are (1) that the previous foreigners reckoned the school didn't care about their wellbeing and that it would therefore be a waste of effort to try to help them understand, and (2) maybe the school really didn't care. Then again, maybe they do care and the situation you encountered was an improvement over what the previous FT's encountered. Some learn faster than others. |
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