Job Discussion Forums

Milamber · Joined: 17 Jun 2003 Posts: 16

Hi!

I have a question that hasn't already been answered with a yes/no answer (all I get is a lot of confusion!) and its like this:

Suppose that I get an L visa for six months and then enter China. Can the school I intend to work for change that L visa to a Z one legally (I stress that!), or must I get the Z visa myself (when I receive all necessary documents etc.)?

The reason I ask is that an L visa is significantly cheaper than a Z visa, and from what I can gather also, a darn sight quicker to obtain than the Z visa. Also, I know that the employers are responsible for getting the Z visas and so I find it odd that they expect me to do it all (is that right? Has anyone had to get their own Z visa before?).... but I guess that is by the by..

Anyway, many thanks for any responses.

JamesD · Posted: Thu Aug 14, 2003 8:51 pm Post subject:

Yes, depending on the relationship with your school and the local boys. My school does this regularly as it is MUCH easier and cheaper to come in on an L visa.
However, it DOES DEPEND ON THE SCHOOL!!

Minhang Oz · Joined: 23 Apr 2003 Posts: 610 Location: Shanghai,ex Guilin

Sorry to be the one to tell you, but:
YES.....in some circumstances schools can and will organise an in-country visa conversion for you, and pick up the tab. This generally occurs if a] they badly need you right now, or, b] you were officially invited, but the paperwork went missing and didn't reach you in time. This happened in my case.
Otherwise, if you're outside the PRC and have an invitation letter [meaning your credentials are OK, and the school is licensed to employ you], and you have a passport with at least 12{?} months validity, as well as a completed medical form, getting your own Z visa is no big hassle, and the school is perfectly entitled to ask you to do this. Whether they reimburse you is between the two of you.
The alternative COULD be - you arrive on an L, they tell you to go to HK at your expense to get a Z. Too bad if you're in Lanzhou, not so serious if you're in Guangzhou.
Some PSBs WILL NOT convert an L to a Z. Some will. That's China. So, do you want to take your chances?

Cobra · Joined: 28 Jul 2003 Posts: 436

Ah could you please ask a simple yes or no question?

Nobuhle · Joined: 14 Apr 2003 Posts: 17 Location: Xi'an, China

Hi,

I too have a question relating to work visas. I am currently in Xi'an. I came into China in June on a tourist visa. The school very quickly obtained my work visa and residence permit. My residence permit is valid until June 2004 (when my contract ends). However, the work visa is only valid until September 2, 2003. We have been told that as long as we carry our residence permits, we will be fine. Suppossedly, that is just the way it is done in Xi'an. To me, it sounds very strange to have a work permit valid only for two months and yet I am still here legally. Could it be that the valid until date just gives the time frame for when you need to have your residence permit by?

Any help would be appreciated.

Thanks,
Erica

Minhang Oz · Joined: 23 Apr 2003 Posts: 610 Location: Shanghai,ex Guilin

There's two schools of thought based, I think, on local interpretation. I'm in the same position as you, and that's how it's been explained to me: that the Z [work] visa enables you to get a residents permit and experts card. Once these are in place, and kept current, you'll only need a visa for re-entry purposes. In terms of your day to day life, the residents permit plays the same role an ID card does for a local, and is an essential document.

The other school of thought says that unless you've got a current Z visa, you're illegal, which would mean a hell of a lot of us are!

Milamber · Joined: 17 Jun 2003 Posts: 16

Thanks all,

MO - my girlfriend (who, bless her, is Chinese and thus can read the law in Chinese!) has shown me the Chinese law on these things and apparently the changing of an L visa to a Z one is a no-no by law, but like you guys said, its about guanxi. Fair play.

My suspicions is that the school doesn't want to use their guanxi if they have some, but there is one more thing....

In the same section of law it states that the employer must foot the bill for the processing and obtaining of the Z visa - it doesn't say anything else! (I found all this after my post here!)

Apparently there are quite a few other laws on the subject of Foreign experts at this particular website and when I find the reference I'll post it.

So I guess I got to go to Manchester next week and fork out a cack load for the Z visa (boo hoo!)

Thanks anyway guys.

Milamber · Joined: 17 Jun 2003 Posts: 16

Please do your research Sunaru! *L*
Rolling Eyes

The tourist visa costs 30GBP for normal service. Plus 20GBP for same day

Documents needed (besides all the obvious) = Plane ticket only.

The work visa costs 90GBP for normal service. Plus 20GBP for same day

Documents needed = Invitation letter and a permit of some sort (school provides these)

Normal service is 3 to 4 days. However, for me that means a stay in Manchester (it adds up!)

Postal service takes 2 weeks for any service, no same day malarkey there. Costs are still the same.

I have less than 2 weeks before I go back.....

30 GBP is not a cack load, but I believe 110GBP is for what it is. And that doesn't include the transport costs to/from Manchester (also a significant amount).

And as for Maccy D's - well they get paid more than I do! *L*.

Roger · Joined: 19 Jan 2003 Posts: 9138

Nobuhle,
you certainly MUST have a visa for the entire duration of your sojourn in China, not just a residence permit! Why, it matters when you LEAVE the country, at which time your residence permit is invalid. The visa is the ONLY official document that allows you to be on PRC territory, the residence permit is a permit issued by the PSB that allows you to be resident in a designated area (where the PSB will "protect" you - note, they are under obligation to afford you safety and security so that the dear motherland of China's name shines in glory).
In your case, you must obtain a new visa or a visa extension upon expiry of your current visa. Go to the PSB a couple of days BEFORE it expires, and see what can be done! In some cases, the PSB will give you an extension for a month, but certainly not until June of next year! You will have to obtain a F visa - if your school can wheedle that out of the PSB, which I doubt under these circumstances - it would appear to be a little bizarre that a foreign national changes his status from tourist to that of an employee and on to be a businessperson! You will probably have to make a quick exit to Hong Kong and return on a new L or F visa for six months.

I believe with an invitation to join a school as a teacher you cannot choose the type of visa you apply for in your home country! If you do apply for an L visa, they will probably baulk at upgrading it to a Z visa. Perhaps they do not wish to foot the higher bill. I personally feel this is unfair, and I have always obtained my Z visa from local PSB's. My very first work visa my school applied for upon my tourist visa's expiry. That school had a standing policy of hiring expat teachers on a probation basis, during which time you were working on a tourist visa.

Visa refunding should be negotiated upfront, together with airfare refunding!
By the way, how much is 90 GBP? I can safely say that in the Guangdong municipality where I obtained my work visa, my school had to pay 1880 RMB for holders of British passports (there were two of them), plus the medical bill (156 RMB). That visa was for one year.

Milamber · Joined: 17 Jun 2003 Posts: 16

Roger,

I was under the impression that any work on a tourist visa was illegal - so even the probation thing that the school did with you was also a no-no.

I was stressing the legal part because to be honest I think the school I'm going to go to is playing by the rules (for once? *L*).

90GBP - multiply by 13.5 to get the approx price in RMB. GBP = Great British Pounds.

My original idea was to go in on an L visa, and let the school sort it out from there, but the school seem a bit insistent that it should be me that gets the Z visa, and they'll pay me back.

What about the medical thing too? A lot of foreigners get their medicals in their own country only to find that they have to get another when they arrive in China. Does that mean that the Z visa is most definately out of my reach here, because we need a medical to get the Z visa don't we?

There are no laws saying that the school must get the visa itself, but I'm under the impression that the school must fot the bill. At least that is how it was translated to me by my girlfriend.

Note to Dave: Maybe we should have a sticky with FAQs on visas, explaining in detail the laws behind dealing with these things? It seems to me that a lot of people have questions about visas (myself included) that probably could be answered all in one place and cut down on a lot of posts here. What does everyone else think?

Thanks again.

Roger · Joined: 19 Jan 2003 Posts: 9138

Of course, working on an L visa IS ILLEGAL, no matter whether your school is in the process of upgrading your status. However, this is widely being practised. I am not saying you should try this; my school was one of China's first to hire expats (Isince 1979!), and they still break laws routinely every year. Not only are expats made to work illegally during their probation period; very often, they have to OVERSTAY their visa validity! In this case, the school foots the fine! When I worked there, we were 7 international teachers, six of whom had a one-month tourist visa that expired before we were taken to the medical exam. It is amazing that schools get away with doing this year in and year out, and that no higher authority clamps down on this waste of taxpayers' revenues!

Minhang Oz · Joined: 23 Apr 2003 Posts: 610 Location: Shanghai,ex Guilin

"It is amazing that schools get away with doing this year in and year out, and that no higher authority clamps down on this waste of taxpayers' revenues!" quoth Roger.
Mate, I've been here less than half the time you have, and NOTHING schools or authorities do, or don't do, amazes me anymore.

JamesD · Posted: Sun Aug 17, 2003 3:42 pm Post subject: Permit for L or Z??

[quote="Roger"]Nobuhle,
you certainly MUST have a visa for the entire duration of your sojourn in China, not just a residence permit! Why, it matters when you LEAVE the country, at which time your residence permit is invalid.

Roger,
Either I am misreading or your explanation is a little confusing.
If you're on an L or F visa, yes, you need a visa for your entire stay.
If you're on a work visa and do not leave the country (unless you have multiple entry) the date in your green book takes over from the Z visa on your passport.

If you're working on the premise that he has an L visa he can't get a resident permit anyway.

??

arioch36 · Joined: 21 Jan 2003 Posts: 3589

I would like to hear from anyone who claims to have gotten a residence permit while in China on a tourist visa.

I would like to hear from anyone who left the country on an expired visa

You have to have a visa to be in a country legally. Is there any country in the world where this is not true?

True, almost always, if you are asked for ID, the residence permit is what you show. So if you never switch schools (well, never want to legally switch schools) and never want to leave the country, you probably could get away with never having a current visa.

Gray000 · Joined: 14 Apr 2003 Posts: 183 Location: A better place

I left the country via the Shenzhen-HK harbor route with an expired work visa and current residence/FE permits.