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Gregor
Joined: 06 Jan 2005
Posts: 842
Location: Jakarta, Indonesia
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 Posted: Fri Feb 24, 2006 3:56 am Post subject: |
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AWESOME englishgibson quote:
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| I have done what you've done so I know it. |
Right. You have been the DoS at EF Shenyang from 2003 to 2005. No? Because that is the ONLY way you would have any idea. If you actually were a DoS at an EF, then you might (or might not, I guess) know that, as stated before, an EF can pay whatever it wants to, so long as it can find teachers to do it. In Shenyang, as far as I know, the salary went from 5000RMB for a year to 5000 > 5500 > 6000. Sorry. But that's the truth. Were they "ripping off" the teachers? Depends on your point of view. They had good teachers - a teacher would TYPICALLY do two contracts (6000 a month on the second) back to back. They were happy there. Did other EFs pay more? You say so, so maybe it's true (though with some of the stuff you say, I'd hardly consider you to be an authority on the subject, but OK, I wouldn't know because I've only worked at the Shenyang and Dalian schools). But whatever.
I don't, really, deep in my heart, care all that much.
As for vikdk:
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Gregor I'm afraid you havn't really answered the important part of the question - that relating to the probation period.
Gregor as a teacher can you see any real reason for a probationary wage rate apart from there is potential saving in money for the company if the employee and employer have to part company during the probationary period.
Please answer as an ordinary Joe FT -you don't have to bring company or anything into this. As a new FT did you have to go onto a probationary wage rate when you started working overseas? |
Really? I haven't answered that question? I thought that's what THIS was:
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The lower salary is indicative of the amount of help the teacher requires. Even if the teacher isn't costing the school money in that time, the chances are good that he or she MIGHT do, by losing students or having students insist on a different teacher. But they certainly require a lot of hours from the other, higher-paid teachers to help them learn the ropes. THOSE teachers don't mind providing that kind of support because they know the newbie is making less money. This helps us get more of a team effort, and the new teachers get the support they need from the ones who have been here longer.
It's perfectly fair, considering - again - that even the entry-level pay is a fair salary for the job. |
Then again, if you don't like those words, then how about these?
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| Whatever you mean to express here, EF salaries didn't go down. They went UP. Who would complain about that? They just didn't go up for anyone until they finished their first three months. That seems reasonable to me. As long as I've been in China (since early 2003), the teachers started at 5000RMB a month. No one complained about that, especially once they got here and learned that some places pay less than that, AND they don't pay for housing. EF does (it's shared, with the option of a housing allowance, and THIS is no secret either - that's the SECOND thing I tell teachers before they come out). |
Still not happy? OK. As an entry-level teacher, I would have been happy with the pay. It's about a thousand more than universities pay, and though maybe other places here may say they pay more, they often withhold the pay for a week to get another week out of you and so on, and you can expect to get screwed at the end of a contract. I'll take a SLIGHTLY lower salary to avoid that, thanks so much. The salary going up TWICE during the year? I'd have LOVED that. I have never once got a raise in the middle of a contract. |
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vikdk
Joined: 25 Jun 2003
Posts: 1676
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| Posted: Fri Feb 24, 2006 4:16 am Post subject: |
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Wow Gregor you make EF sound like a charity with the motto - train 'em pay 'em and house 'em in one big happy family 
for another viewpoint lets go back to the Roger quote
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| Surely the uncertainties of hiring a foreign teacher add to the overheads of any school? |
Dont schools/companies whatever hire us with a view to making a buck or two - in the quote above - delete overheads and write in profits.
With this in mind the probationary rate as explained by you seems even more grotesque - because cost of investment in new staff is partly being shouldered by the FT while the company walks off with an even bigger payback |
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Gregor
Joined: 06 Jan 2005
Posts: 842
Location: Jakarta, Indonesia
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| Posted: Fri Feb 24, 2006 5:01 am Post subject: |
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That's fine, vikdk. None of this stuff is secret. You talk as though you're appalled at the idea of a school making as much profit as possible from the workers they hire.
I suppose Marx felt the same way. So did a lot of people in various communist revolutions, and that's perfectly fine. You don't have to take a job working for anyone you don't want to. If that means you refuse to contribute to the profit of a company, that's perfectly fine too. All I'm saying is that if the salary or wage is acceptable to you, then take it. If not, don't. How much MORE the company makes by hiring you isn't, in MY opinion, even any of your business as an employee. Your deal is, you get the money you agreed to. THE END.
And if the deal at EF Dalian sounds too good for you to believe, that's fine too. I very seriously doubt that you could work here, anyway, with that chip on your shoulder. But you can be pretty well sure that the teachers working here are pretty glad they got this job, because it's pretty much the only school in town that treats its teachers anything LIKE this well.
Why do they do it? So that they can maybe talk some of them into staying longer. Recruiting and flying in new teachers is expensive. |
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vikdk
Joined: 25 Jun 2003
Posts: 1676
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| Posted: Fri Feb 24, 2006 7:36 am Post subject: |
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appalled no - surprised no - amused yes
this thread should be renamed a 1001 ways to justify a probationary wage - and how our old friend Karl Marx (I assume you're on about him and not Groucho) got into this thread I don't know:lol:
anyways Gregor you said
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| Recruiting and flying in new teachers is expensive. |
Ofcourse it's expensive. It's called an investment, a common business practice. After all your company makes money out of FT's? My point is just as straighforward, from our ordinary Joe FT position on the front line - you know in classroom, not behind the wheel of some black saloon car with dark tinted windows probationary rates are a kick in the ass and could easily be assumed as a way to recroup on those investment costs - sounds fishy to me (maybe to others aswell) - but then again I'm sure management knows best
by the way this was a classic -
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| If that means you refuse to contribute to the profit of a company, that's perfectly fine too |
sure I'll try and make money for my employers through my professional excellence - but through a shrinking wage packet - no thanks |
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Babala
Joined: 28 Jan 2005
Posts: 1303
Location: Henan
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| Posted: Fri Feb 24, 2006 9:08 am Post subject: |
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| My company has the wage probationary wage and I don't see the huge deal about it. You start at one wage, after 3 months you go up 1000 RMB and then after 6 months you go up another 1000 RMB. What's wrong with waiting to see if a teacher is going to work out? |
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vikdk
Joined: 25 Jun 2003
Posts: 1676
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| Posted: Fri Feb 24, 2006 9:10 am Post subject: |
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| duhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh babala - why should this process mean that the teacher has to accept a lower wage????????? |
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Babala
Joined: 28 Jan 2005
Posts: 1303
Location: Henan
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| Posted: Fri Feb 24, 2006 9:27 am Post subject: |
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| duhhhhhhhhhh babala |
What's with that? I think you've been hanging out with your kindy students too much 
Look no teacher HAS to accept anything. If it is that big a deal to them, then don't go to school that has the probation period but there are FT's who don't see it as being a problem such as myself. |
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vikdk
Joined: 25 Jun 2003
Posts: 1676
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| Posted: Fri Feb 24, 2006 9:50 am Post subject: |
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I think you misunderstand the use of this forum - we're not here to force anybody to accept anything, I think this is forum for pooling advice and experience - so far what I get from you babala is - well those probation wages are there so just accept them or not
But surely from your wealth of experience you must have built up an opinion towards why a probation period should be linked to lower wages - or should we just say "suck some things stink, let's get on with it" - you know where do we draw the line, how do we create a better work environment for FT's, how do we try and do our tiny bit the warn new FT's away from all the traps and pitfalls - you tell me babala I'm just a kindy teacher |
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Babala
Joined: 28 Jan 2005
Posts: 1303
Location: Henan
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| Posted: Fri Feb 24, 2006 10:00 am Post subject: |
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| It's all in the way you look at it. You look at it as getting a lower wage than you are supposed to. I look at it like you have a starting wage and then you are given a raise after 3 months and another raise after 6 months. There are companies in the west who also do this, it's not just a Chinese thing. |
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vikdk
Joined: 25 Jun 2003
Posts: 1676
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| Posted: Fri Feb 24, 2006 10:16 am Post subject: |
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| babala those are long-term bonus schemes or training wages (and I doubt if you'll find many teaching jobs in the west jumping through three increments in a one year period) - probation is an entirely different kettle of fish - probation means that either you or the company can let go of each other with no strings attached - well at least on the company side - for the FT to use this right (when a probationary wage is applied) a string has yanked her wage rate down to a lower level! Also think of those FT's who have a real reason for leaving - illness, death in the family etc. -when say 5 or 6 months through a contract - probation was dear luxury for them!!!! And we wont say anything about the unscrupulous Chinese employer - because ofcourse these don't exist |
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englishgibson
Joined: 09 Mar 2005
Posts: 4345
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| Posted: Fri Feb 24, 2006 10:34 am Post subject: "The Probationary Period" |
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| Gregor wrote: |
AWESOME ..........
If you actually were a DoS at an EF, then you might (or might not, I guess) know that, as stated before, an EF can pay whatever it wants to, so long as it can find teachers to do it.
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Well, as "AWESOME" as it is you are just so wrong.
If you actually are a Director of Studies (Dos) of a "non-cloned" EF English First center in China, then you shall be familiar with the EF intranet (which you dislike as you've menitoned before) and the standard EF teacher's contract. If your EF Center Manager does not provide you with a standard EF contract, your job is to find it on that intranet and enforce it in your EF teachers' office or notify your Academic Operations Manager in Shanghai. Standard EF contracts might change from year to year, but what would you know about it, Gregor?
No EF center shall pay whatever it wants to pay!
It looks like you've been working for a center that has little to do with EF English First and you are a b*t** of your employer with all due respect to you. Sorry to say that, but as I've said, I've been there, but when I was to become ones b*t**, I said NO. That's why I am no longer with EF English First.
Since our discussion is getting nowhere, and since you have little idea about EF English First operation in China, I am over this discusion with you on this thread, Gregory.
Peace
And
Cheers and beers |
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clark.w.griswald
Joined: 06 Dec 2004
Posts: 2056
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| Posted: Fri Feb 24, 2006 11:56 am Post subject: |
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| Babala wrote: |
| It's all in the way you look at it. You look at it as getting a lower wage than you are supposed to. I look at it like you have a starting wage and then you are given a raise after 3 months and another raise after 6 months. |
It seems to me that this is the essence of this discussion.
No one has been able to bring to this discussion a clear example of a school that has lowered its starting wage and called it a probationary wage. I don't doubt for a minute that some schools do this, but I think that it is pretty clear that most schools who offer a probationary wage are actually offering a starting wage which good teachers can then add to. I believe that most of us are talking about the latter and I certainly don't see anyone defending the former.
I agree with Babala that this is common around the world and that it is only a negative if you look at it negatively.
Also, if you look at the schools that tend to have these tiered pay conditions they tend to be the schools that offer secure positions with on the job training and full curriculums. There are obvious benefits there other than top dollar from day one.
As to the old furphy of earnings based upon what your school makes or charges it's students or whatever...well start your own school if you want to share in the profits! If you want the security of being a salaried employee then accept the fact that with this security of getting paid each month comes the fact that you don't likely make a fortune. This is a fundamental rule of investment and I certainly don't understand any argument that suggests that employees should be entitled to share in the spoils while being protected from the risks  |
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Gregor
Joined: 06 Jan 2005
Posts: 842
Location: Jakarta, Indonesia
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| Posted: Fri Feb 24, 2006 12:47 pm Post subject: |
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And that, folks, is pretty much the end. If this thread continues it's clearly for no other reason than to bait one another.
What Clark just wrote is pretty much the bottom line. Take the pay offered, try to negotiate a higher salary, or don't take the job. One of those three. How did this thread go on for so long? |
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vikdk
Joined: 25 Jun 2003
Posts: 1676
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| Posted: Fri Feb 24, 2006 5:44 pm Post subject: |
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the bottom line - who's bottom line
Not my bottom line - since your three way choice certainly doesn't leave much room for a discussion on something to do with the rights and conditions of FT's in China - maybe the management don't want us to discuss some of the unpleasant facts surrounding the probationary period, but to tell us to be quiet - because you think that this is a personal attack on you, and not on a practice that can exploit and cheat the unwary FT - well I don't really know what to think of that, other than to conclude that I can decide myself what to think and when to be quiet - thank you very much
Last edited by vikdk on Sat Feb 25, 2006 2:55 am; edited 1 time in total |
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superdave01
Joined: 19 Jun 2005
Posts: 22
Location: canada
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| Posted: Fri Feb 24, 2006 10:59 pm Post subject: |
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| i don't see any reason for probationary periods...i have heard the arguement that they are used to protect the company who may have hired someone unsuited for the job...whose fault is this? certainly not the employee's...the onus is on the the person doing the hiring to conduct proper interviews and check all references to ensure that he is not hiring a moron...probationary periods are used by those companies who have lazy or inept people working in human resources. |
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