Job Discussion Forums

[cafebleu]

I think nomadder`s example of being told their Canadian accent did not sound quite right is simply an example of assumptions being made by the Japanese person.

If that Japanese person, high level or not, living in USA experience or not, had not known you were Canadian I bet they wouldn`t have made that comment. Even Canadians and Americans more often than not can`t distinguish between their countries` accents unless it is something really regional like a heavy Southern American accent.

The test is when the Japanese person concerned does not know which country you are from. Then see how well they can distinguish between a Canadian and a US accent. This issue is not the great problem it is being made out to be. Try texts with different accents and 9 times out of 10 the Japanese person cannot distinguish between the cartoony Aussie accent and the American accent. Don`t tell a Japanese person where you are from and they will assume you are speaking with an American accent.

The solution to Japanese people wanting to learn American English is simple - teach good, natural American conversation as found in any number of good textbooks. If you happen to be teaching at a school which uses British English textbooks you can take a little time in giving the different words for the same things. It`s a no brainer. Personally I have never had a problem giving both American and British English vocab when the students wanted it - mainly because there are not so many differences.

If your students want the kind of bad, distorted or slangy English they hear on American tv or in movies tell them no. English speakers who are not from the USA don`t automatically start speaking with that kind of bad grammar or with faux African American streetslang when they visit the USA so why should you tell your Japanese students to speak like that?

[scot47]

I am sure that most English speakers cannot differentiate between English spoken by a Canadian and English spoken by a USanal.

[khmerhit]

Not so, Im afraid Dr Scot, but I can see why anyone might think it. I knew a Yorkshireman who claimed to be able to. He said the Canadian accent was softer.

Establishment Canadians (English-speaking politicians, profs, journos, novelists, musicians, and such-like, like Hollywood actors of yore, and like posh or pommie Australians even today, can sound nearly English, though perhaps not so much as in the old days).

In fact, there are very noticeable differences betwen your bog average Canadian accent and your bog average American one (there are many versions of American, as I guess you know, just as there are numerous different varieties of Scots.

In Scotland, Ive heard everyting from RP to Gaelic. Well, the same obtains in Canada, including the Gaelic, i believe (you'll need to ask CaperGirl in Nova Scotia about that, though.) Where I live it is still fairly common to hear RP; thats because a large measure of the populace is in fact British-born, a dirty little secret that nobody likes to talk about. My grandfather, great-grandparents and many of my neighbours and teachers were British. ... Then of course you have your Canajun accent, which is fairly homogenous across the country (because of the rapid way it was settled.) This usually sounds distinctly flat and North American and is often, admittedly, very nearly identical to American. But the experienced ear can spot the difference-- most of the time, just as I suspect you can spot the distinctions between Highland and Lowland and parts in between.
Thus endeth the verbiage.

[Vince]

I occasionally get that too. To set a nondiscriminatory tone, I make it clear that no dialect is better or worse than the others, and that using, for example, apartment or flat is each student's choice. I tell them that anything beyond basic vocabulary differences isn't an issue at their level.

Most students I've taught wanted American English, but I've occasionally gotten the "American English is just slang" attitude. It usually comes from students who can't speak or write a simple sentence, but once heard someone say that on NHK.

[TokyoLiz]

...but virtually no Japanese student wil be able to identify a Canadian or American or British speaker. .

Canadians can certainly identify each other by their accents, but I find that even Americans have a hard time picking us out simply by our accents. You can hardly expect students to notice.

I've met very few students who can tell - and those students studied in international schools in Canada.

It's a great game, getting your Japanese colleagues and students to try to place you. Even if you 'put on' an accent, they rarely notice. I was raised by Weegies - Glasgow people- and Low German speaking Mennonite folk, and when I put on the Weegie or Plat Deutch accents, my students never notice.

I introduced my students to my French speaking friends, my South African friends, and my students never noticed a difference in accent.

Hah!

[ruggedtoast]

Having thought about it its probably natural that the Japanese would show a preference to some extent for US English as, somewhat like South Korea, they are a sort of de facto colony of America, resentful of but also dependent on the US for 90pc of the stability that allows them to continue to be prosperous.

Unlike South Korea they were decisively and humiliating crushed by their main asia pacific adversary, the US when the 2 A-bombs went off over Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

The unthinkable happened and they were subsequently occupied by thousands of foreign troops, no kami came to them rescue, no hurricane blew the bombers out of the sky, the emperor (and therefore Japan) was stripped of his divinity, Tokyo was obliterated and Japan could look long and far without finding one single friend on any of its smouldering horizons.

Most Japanese never see a GI, unless they belong to the distant and apparently unloved island of Okinawa but America runs deep through their consciousness, most Japanese, even if unconsciously, are aware that the political shots that most control their archipelagos direction are called in Washington, not the Diet.

During the latest Iraq adventure, depsite large domestic oppositiion, Koizumi didnt even entertain the prospect of differing with mr Bush, so much so that he didnt bother spinning the war for his distraught domestic audience, so politically unthinkable is it that Japan should have any political self determination. Compare this to Tony Blairs histrionic "god and history will be my judge" attempts to sling his stupid war to the British public. He had to have a good reason to follow the Americans, Koizumi would have to have a better reason not to.

No other country is under the sway of the US as much as Japan and in the Japanese consciousness no country could, by induction, be as important. Do they resent it? Yes they do. But theyre a practical nation who coincidentally have an education system that teaches them virtually nothing about the world outside Japan or Japans place in the world. In a sense America is their world, their security blanket, and their future.

Calling a pair of Nike sports shoes "trainers" here has the same effect as going into a cafe in Yorkshire and asking for a plate of grits. Even if you can get them to understand what you are talking about who on earth would ever want such a thing?

Few Japanese "want" to speak English, they speak and learn it partly because they enjoy Americana as much as most of the world does but mostly because theyre stuck in an unequal relationship with America they can never see a way out of, and if they have to speak American English why on earth shouldnt the British, and the Australians, and the New Zealanders and the Indians and the Singaporeans...

As a Brit in Japan who has as good a reason as anyone to be proud of their language and their culture and a wealth of personal experience to know that British English is very much alive, well and in demand throughout the world, it is very irritating, but I can kind of understand it.

[Glenski]

ruggedtoast,

When did this turn into an anti-American anti-war political statement?

de facto colony, indeed!

[canuck]

ruggedtoast, are you on ludes or just disgruntled? Back to the discussion.

[TokyoLiz]

Ruggedtoast,

I don't think you're on ludes, but then, it's a bit off topic.

However, I do agree with you that Japan's love affair with English is tied to their history with America.

Glenski, how do you get the impression that Ruggedtoast's line is anti-American? Rugged mentions the attitudes towards involvement in Iraq, not about the justifications for or opposition to the actual conflict in Iraq. He's talking about US/Japan relations. Same with the anti-war comment - Rugged's talking about the response to the American regime's call to its neighbours and friends to participate in the action in Iraq.

Maybe this discussion needs a new thread?

[Glenski]

Liz,

You're kidding, aren't you?

To bombast us in the middle of a discussion on accents (covering a variety of nationalities) with a lengthy political discourse by itself is as bizarre as a few other notable posters of late. But, to jump from accents to statements like the following is obviously anti-American in tone:

like South Korea, they are a sort of de facto colony of America, resentful of but also dependent on the US

What this has to do with language is beyond me.

Unlike South Korea they were decisively and humiliating crushed by their main asia pacific adversary, the US when the 2 A-bombs went off over Hiroshima and Nagasaki. The unthinkable happened and they were subsequently occupied by thousands of foreign troops, no kami came to them rescue, no hurricane blew the bombers out of the sky, the emperor (and therefore Japan) was stripped of his divinity, Tokyo was obliterated and Japan could look long and far without finding one single friend on any of its smouldering horizons.

Again, what is the point related to teaching English, or the topic in this thread?

And, I love this one...
Most Japanese never see a GI, unless they belong to the distant and apparently unloved island of Okinawa

I believe there are 100 bases on Japan (39 on Okinawa), yet rugged chooses to mention only Okinawa. Yes, it contains 75% of the US military population, but the other 61 are sufficiently spread around the country (some near large populations such as Tokyo) that present enormous opportunities for others to "see a GI" aside from Okinawans.

but America runs deep through their consciousness

Yes, what do you expect from the largest economy in the world, the one that not only stopped the war by its action in Japan, but the one that also instituted recovery and rebuilding efforts? Nobody expects Japanese to dismiss American presence since 1945 or its global presence. Yet, the undertone is, as I see it, anti-American in nature. Read on.

most Japanese, even if unconsciously, are aware that the political shots that most control their archipelagos direction are called in Washington, not the Diet.[color=#444444][/color]

Tell me this isn't at least pointing an anti-American finger? (Again, what is the relevance to teaching English?)


No other country is under the sway of the US as much as Japan and in the Japanese consciousness no country could, by induction, be as important. Do they resent it? Yes they do.

Unsubstantiated socio-political drivel that relates not at all to teaching English.

But theyre a practical nation who coincidentally have an education system that teaches them virtually nothing about the world outside Japan or Japans place in the world

Hey! We're beginning to approach the business of this discussion forum at last (to some degree, anyway; he did, after all, mention the word "education"). Of course, it took rugged 6 paragraphs and 20 lines of unrelated text to do it.

In a sense America is their world, their security blanket, and their future.

Debatable conjecture. And, back off-topic again. Yawn.

Calling a pair of Nike sports shoes "trainers" here has the same effect as going into a cafe in Yorkshire and asking for a plate of grits. Even if you can get them to understand what you are talking about who on earth would ever want such a thing?

To be honest, as a non-athletic person, I have to think long and hard to realize what "trainers" means. Could be running shorts for all I know. As for the crack against half a dozen or more southern US states' fondness for grits, I also have to point out that there are many Americans who do not know what they are. And, there is no reason to put down someone's gustatory tastes, especially if one is from the "culinary heaven" of the UK. But, here again, we are at least drifting into the vicinity of teaching English, however vaguely. It was at this point that I began to get a glimmer of what rugged might have been getting at, but I still had to read through a whole paragraph before he made a point.

Few Japanese "want" to speak English

Why put the word in quotes? I am tempted to say rugged is wrong with this statement, but I don't want to do that because I truly don't understand what he means. And, as a stickler for numbers, I'd like to have him qualify what "few" means.

they speak and learn it partly because they enjoy Americana as much as most of the world does

Who are "they"? All Japanese who learn English? That includes students in kindergarten, elementary school, high school and universities (where their classes are mandatory, so there is no choice whether they like Americana or not). And, there are college students who want to study abroad but return to Japan with their higher degrees. It also includes businessmen, who may or may not have a fondness for America, but are forced by economic realities of their companies to learn more English for the sake of promotions, or because their company has decided to go international and needs English correspondence, or because their company has decided to institute English in its office as a standard language. It also includes huge numbers of scientists whose most common language worldwide is English (not just "American English, either). And, what about the eikaiwa students who want to travel to English-speaking countries other than the USA?

As for enjoying Americana as much as "most of the world" does, sorry, pitifully incorrect, but this little diatribe smacks of anti-Americanism pretty openly to me.

if they have to speak American English why on earth shouldnt the British, and the Australians, and the New Zealanders and the Indians and the Singaporeans...

In my opinion, rugged's entire post boils down to this one statment, one that could've saved us all the time of reading 8 other paragraphs (26 lines, if you're counting). As I read between the lines here, I see one clear statement. Rugged is British, and he sees too much American English (whatever that is) being taught in Japan and too much fondness for it, as compared to his own British English (again, I ask someone to define this separately from New Zealander, Aussie, or Indian forms of the language). In my classes, I clearly point out to students that the English taught and used in Japanese society is a mixture of "British and North American English", and that neither one is right or wrong. It just exists. If rugged has some other point to make, I wish he would do it, and do it more succinctly. This one is too buried in unnecessary murkiness and verbiage, and it is a worn out point at that.

As a Brit in Japan who has as good a reason as anyone to be proud of their language and their culture and a wealth of personal experience to know that British English is very much alive

I agree wholeheartedly with rugged. I'm enhancing the font on this just so people realize I am not anti-British or anti-rugged in this respect. But, what was the point of his post? Yes, he started this whole thing with valid complaints about what his students said/did, although they didn't all deal with this American vs. British English sentiment. Then, he sat back while 3 pages of posters put forth their ideas and comments before he jumped back with this one. Why, rugged? Where were you all this time (July 14 to August 17)?

[kamome]

Glenski-calling the UK a "culinary heaven" sarcastically makes you as guilty as Rugged for posting "drivel"!!!!! Have you ever been to the UK? I've been to the US many times and food is not one of its strong points either.......

Seriously though why did you have to ruthlessly dissect his post? It's only one person's view on a frankly unimportant in the great scheme of things internet discussion forum.

US v British English.......I've met a lot of Americans here who seem to think they own the language and snigger when they hear words like "trainers" or non-US English words. I've also met a lot of ignorant Brits who arrogantly assume THEY own the language too. Nobody does, in my humble opinion.

But if Rugged feels the need to go off topic the he has a perfect right to do so surely?

[TokyoLiz]

[diomedes]

I've been enjoying this thread.

I'm not sure about Japan (I haven't been here long enough) but in Korea it goes beyond not just being unable to distinguish between different English accents. In Korea, my students couldn't tell the difference between English and non-English languages.

My intermediate adult students in Korea who were studying to do post-graduate work in the US insisted that the movie "Life is Beautiful" was in English. Yup, they couldn't tell the difference between English and Italian.

At another time, I was on the train with one of my Korean friends. There were two other white people present. After we left the train, she asked me what they were saying because she couldn't understand their English. I said, "I have no idea because they were speaking German."

Of course this just might be a Korean thing were students are taught in middle school that all white people are Americans and speak English. (I did ask some Koreans about African- and Hispanic-Americans, but they never did answer me.)

[Glenski]

[mr pink]

As far as my experience in China has taught me, students will say different things, depending on their attitude. One student wanted to flatter me by telling me how wonderful it was that I spoke American English. Another student, who had a British accent, decided that she could pick and choose from what I taught...if she believed she was right, then she said it was a difference between American and British English.

A stranger ambushed me and wanted to know where I was from, what my name was, my job...etc. I told him a lie, that I was from Canada. This guy goes up and down saying how I don't look American, my accent isn't American...I pittied the fool.

If the students don't understand you, then they look for reasons. Maybe it's your regional accent, you speak too quickly, maybe their English level is way too low for the class, or if you're from Singapore, then you have a problem...yes, that's another bias to add to this thread...but some English-speaking countries have their own version that is obnoxious to...me

mr pink