Job Discussion Forums

[Karen B.]

Not sure if anyone can answer this question for me but i'll give it a go. i have read through a lot of the threads and I realize that any non eu runs the risk of being deported from spain if caught teaching illegally. I was wondering what exactly happens when you get deported? I know you get banned from that country but are there other consequences as well? Do you get a criminal record in your own country? Will it affect travel in the future to other countries? I ask because i am canadian and if i do decide to take the risk i would really like to know what risk i am taking. any info would be helpful. thanks a bunch.

[Alan Warner]

I've never heard of anyone being deported. I had a friend from the US who overstayed his entry stamp by 8 months. When he left Spain the immigration guy asked him if he'd been working. He said no, they let him through. There's someone else I know (US, no visa) that teaches English in one of the Spanish government ministries. Spain has far worse illegal immigrant problems to deal with than non-EUs working for language schools. This reply will probably attract a lot of flack, but I was always taught to tell it like it is. Am I encouraging you to come to Spain? No - that's something you decide on your own.

[stillnosheep]

The problem will not be deportation but that, as an illegal worker, your partner may find it difficult to find employment at anything other than dodgy language schools offering substandard pay and conditions, without proper insurance and legal redress in the case of a problem.

If your partner accepts pay and conditions under the norm for legal workers they will of course be undermining the standard of living of legitimate EFL professionals and should hang his/her head in shame and/or get a better job very quickly.

[Alan Warner]

The non-EUs I know are working for big name language schools. They get paid the same hourly rate as the EUs. Regarding employment protection and suing a language school, enough with the jokes. You work as self-employed, get paid by the hour and run the same risks as a self-employed person would run in any country in the world. As a non-EU you won't have problems finding work. I also have some highly qualified Brit friends and they are still seeking the holy grail: job-for-life, 9-5 in the same place, benefits and pension. These jobs may exist for school teachers, but as an EFL teacher for a language school - let's get real, they all pay by the hour or short-term contracts. Personally, I don't mind as I earn enough to enjoy myself, and I certainly won't hang my head in shame. I have a degree, I have my certificate, I enjoy teaching and I am dedicated to my students. What's shameful about doing a good job and enjoying it?

[Moore]

That's all very well, but working without papers is ILLEGAL. By working here and not paying tax (IVA doesn't count, I mean social security and income tax) you are evading tax: this is a CRIME.

Will people please stop inviting over illegal workers: us EU people are paying for all this, and suffering from poor working conditions as we have no bargaining power as it's full of non-EU workers here who are happy to do the job with no social benefits.

Just which part of the word "illegal" do you people not understand?

[spiral78]

Alan, it is NOT like being self-employed anywhere. You are ILLEGAL - and that means that in case of some bad luck (accident resulting in any kind of injury, illness that requires medical care, being a victim of any kind of crime - including something as minor as a landlord overcharging for phone bills) you have NO RECOURSE.

While problems with your passport stamps when traveling may be rare, they DO happen (ask that guy who was traveling in our group and ended sitting in jail for two days before being denied reentry into the country thanks to ONE cranky border guard) and this uncertainty is always something to consider.

Sure, the reality is that, so long as nothing out of the way happens to you while you're there, you are fairly likely to get away with it. But that doesn't make it right!!!!!

[stillnosheep]

Moore has hit the nail on the head.

EU passport-holders are generally inelegible to (legally) live and work in the US unless their is a shortage of US nationals able to do the job.

There is no shortage of EU nation state nationals able to teach EFL to the same standards as do illegal EFL workers from North America.

Illegal EFL teachers from outside of the EU lead to a lowering of pay and conditions in the Industry (simple supply and demand).

Now of course we are sympathetic to the case of someone's boy or girlfriend wishing to earn money and stay with their bf/gf in Europe. The partner is unlikely to be caught and deported. But one of the reasons that the big schools are able to get away with offering such lousy pay and cionditions to all is the existence of a pool of unqualified illegal labour from North America unable to find legal work in the EU and willing to work as "self-employed' (a legal fiction whereby the school can avoid meeting it's legal obligations vis-a-vis it's employees).

The US does not allow EU nationals to work in EFL in the states. "Self-employment" status allows both the schools effective employment of ilegal workers to remain undiscovered and allows schools to avoid meeting their legal obligations towards employees from within the EU.

[gordogringo]

Are you kidding?With the strong accents native to the EU the poor unsuspecting students in Spain are going to all sound like the Lucky Charm's lephrocan(spelled correctly?) or otherwise something out of a Harry Potter movie.Accent neutral is the only way to teach and excluding the Northern US and Canada will come back to bite Spain eventually.

[gordogringo]

I have honestly never met anyone from the EU I would want teaching any of my dear charges. But as my ever faithful Mexicana novia has pointed out,the Spanish barely speak useable Spanish.Who knows what they will do with English.

[Faulk-like]

You said it GordoGringo. Check out Moore�s post history to see the true nature of non-eu Paranoia and Fear. I happen to pay my taxes as part of my contract, bwt.

[Amanda Vertner]

As a Brit. I can only apologise for Moore and company's negative behaviour to the rest of our English speaking cousins. Moore and co. are the sort of sanctimonious, self-righteous Brits that were the reason I left the UK. Unfortunately it looks like some of them have come over to Spain. Moore and co. seem to be some of those dreadful Brits that when given an inch of advantage will wave it over your head like the sword of Damocles.

One previous poster wrote: "Check out Moore�s post history to see the true nature of non-EU Paranoia and Fear" never a truer word was said. Moore and co. seem to think that Spain is their own personal property and only they can be part of the club.

I've got non-EU friends here from the USA, Canada and Australia, most of whom I have met whilst working for good language schools in Madrid. When they arrived, they brought quite a lot of money with them to survive TEFL courses and/or the first month or so that they planned for whilst waiting for their first pay. They don't whinge and whine like Moore and co. They just saved hard and came over to basically give their imported hard-earned dollars (US, Can. Aus.) to Spanish landlords, the phone company, gas company, electric company, bars etc. In short, to use a terribly business phrase, they imported wealth and added value to Spain. They also brought a skill that is in great demand in Spain - it's called "native English speaking teacher".

The language schools I work for know the law. The problem is that, right now, language schools are turning down classes because they don't have enough native English speakers to give the classes. I've even been asked by 2 of the schools I work for whether I know people that want to teach and they don't care where they come from as long as they are native speakers and are certified.

The only difference between me, a Brit, and my non-EU friends is that (for the joke that it is worth) I have a contract which is heavily in favour of the employer and they don't. We get paid the same, we get paid at the same time and we get treated the same. They don't pay tax!! So what. I don't see what paying tax has got to do with being a decent teacher in a country that is crying out for teachers and doesn't seem to care where they come from.

Which part of illegal don't I understand? I know exactly what it means, but unlike you it doesn't bother me in the slightest. I like the idea of having our English speaking cousins in Spain, it's great and makes for good and very interesting nights out. If the alternative is having to mix with the likes of you, I'd rather cut my wrists. If you don't like the situation as it is and find it offensive, go back to the UK, you'll get lots of sympathy for your "hard done to, not cricket" feelings back home in good old blighty.

Moore and co. you're a disgrace to the UK. If anyone has the right to moan about people not paying tax in Spain it's the Spanish, not you, not me, nor anyone else that is a guest in this country. As Spanish schools and authorities obviously know what is happening regarding English teachers and do nothing about it, it seems to me that they aren't that bothered by it. If they were, they'd have cracked down hard on it.

Moore and co., let the Spanish worry about Spain.

[Moore]

Ms. Vertner: please respect the rules of the forum and keep your posts free of insulting, personal comments. Trawling a posters previous posts is at best odd, and at worst a deliberate targetted attack (if not to say a little bit wierd too): if someone occasionally puts their head above the parapet and says what they think (as long as it is non-insulting and non-personal) then that is their right in a forum. Language such as "sanctimonious, self-righteous", "dreadful", "Paranoia and Fear" "If the alternative is having to mix with the likes of you, I'd rather cut my wrists" is clearly offensive - if you do not agree with a posters comments then use logic and reason rather than making emotive, personal attacks.

I am entitled to my opinions which, quite frankly, are also backed up by the law of this country, and are shared by a good many fellow teachers here in Madrid.

I happen to live here in Spain. I am not here on a one or two year jolly to learn a bit of Spanish and drink the place dry: my life is here. I have worked all around the world in this profession for many years paying local taxes and respecting local laws wherever I have worked. I have now settled in Spain and am going to marry my Spanish girlfriend and buy an appartment here, and hopefully have kids at some point: for this I need money and social security for the future when I am no longer able to work (I still have another 30 years to work but it would be nice to think there might be some sort of pension there for me when the time comes, and so that if God forbid anything happened to me then I would be able to get sickness benefit). "They don�t pay tax, so what?" What do you think pays for the police, the metro, the hospitals, the public school system? IVA? No, it's taxes. What do you think pays for peoples pensions and sickness benefit? Could it be that income tax and social security contributions do in fact make a difference?

As legal EU teachers here our rights are undermined by illegal workers eroding any possible benefits and better pay that might otherwise be available to us were it not for the fact that there is always a willing illegal just around the corner who's here for a good time and not a long time who doesn't give a hoot about paying local taxes or contributing to the infrastructure that allows them to work here in the first place.

Just because the Spanish authorities don't crack down on something doesn't mean they are not aware of it nor that they condone it: they are aware of a good many social ills that they simply do not have the resources to deal with: do not confuse this with some sort of tacit decriminalisation.

"let the Spanish worry about Spain". I am a European. I am a resident here. I have been here for a long time and will remain here for the rest of my life. I pay a lot of taxes here and I go out of my way to do so. I do this because I think this is the right thing to do: that if you work then you should put something back, and also because it is the law of this country.

If someone has differing views to you then don't immediately jump to conclusions about what sort of person they are (because you clearly have no idea), and please keep the insults to yourself.

[spiral78]

Moore's right about the moral and legal aspects of working illegally, and as I've pointed out, there are personal risks to the individuals who choose to do so as well. Suggesting that it's ok to work illegally is really basically indefensible. Sure, a lot of people do it and aren't caught, but there can be consequences for individuals, and the overall consequences of illegal workers for the industry are clear as well.

It's not negative, sanctimonius or self-righteous to point out the problems caused by/experienced by illegal workers. And to justify their presence in terms of their helping to provide 'good and interesting nights out' is not exactly sound argument in favor of illegal workers.

[gordogringo]

They are simply filling the positions necessary by whatever means necessary.This is a fact of business around the world but especially in the EU where governments are very short sighted and protectionist.And as for Spain good luck to you Senor Moore.I visited Spain 6 months ago and found it one of the worlds dullest countries.From Madrid to Barcelona I have seen more activity in a rest home.If you can stand to live in a place that makes the French look friendly more power to you.What on earth could you possibly do for night's out as Amanda describes it?

[spiral78]

Very helpful and useful post, gordo. Thanks so much for enlightening us all.