Job Discussion Forums

vikdk · Joined: 25 Jun 2003 Posts: 1676

Clark since you have worked many years in the head office of a chain company and also are very involved in a recruting site - you must have from your unbiased ordinary joe FT standpoint - now and again run into, or heard of,a little police corruption. That is if you inhabit the same streets as the rest of us Laughing

by the way this is very much on topic - aint it those nice police boys who (don't) catch all those naughty non qualified teachers. Much more usefull to talk about how laws are actualy implemented here rather than some theorectical discussion about what could happen (anybody who can predict trends in lawmaking here must have a crystal ball of amazing size)Therefore the question that begs to be answered - how many teachers out there without a degree been caught - how many find it difficult to compete in the FT market????

clark.w.griswald · Joined: 06 Dec 2004 Posts: 2056

vikdk · Joined: 25 Jun 2003 Posts: 1676

Wow what different view you have of China - what tint are your specs? Are you defending chinese cops 'cause it's me who's doing a bit of muck racking - or has head office life ingrained into you that a good relationship with the authorities is so so important for business, and anyways let's not scare away any nice new teachers Laughing

You know I once talked with a teaching company manager who told me they had to pay 8,000RMB/month to stay kosher with the PSB - they had 2 teachers on F's - lethargic authorities!!! - money under the table Clark - nobody is lethargic about that - and for some it makes more money than upholding the laws of the land Laughing

Now the sorry thing is that I can't get you any accurate stats on the corruption bussiness here, even though my Chinese friends kinda go on about it all the time. But ya know what C - if you really wanted me to bore the pants off ya - I could get put an article a day on this thread from the local rag telling one or another story about the corruption that goes on here - which kinda gets me thinking that although my assumptions are a gut feeling - Id rather trust my big belly than any of your posts on this subject Laughing

But then again if anybody else wants to write in these threads about what an honest bunch of chaps the PSB are - and how you work in "non degree qualified" fear because of their unceasing vigalence - I for one would be highly fascinated to read those very on-topic posts Laughing

By the way get a degree and teaching qualifications - not for a fu...... visa or better prospects (maybe you to can land a head office job), but to improve your teaching ability and help lift TESOl out of the quagmire it has landed in, in China!!!!!!!!!!!!

latefordinner · Joined: 19 Aug 2003 Posts: 973

Running back to the OP, I'm inclined to agree that things are slowly changing for the better. It seems the SAFEA regulations are, well, not exactly being taken seriously as regulations, so much as heeded as reasonable suggestions more often than not. Yes it's still quite possible to come here with a white face, high school diploma and a hundred dollars in your pocket and get a job at one of the low end language mills. The better schools however are getting better at screening out the backpackers, and as anywhere the better qualified candidates tend to get the better jobs.
As for the notorious F visa debate, and the new one about the extent of corruption in the PSB, that is well and truly matter for another thread.

vikdk · Joined: 25 Jun 2003 Posts: 1676

Why's it a matter for another thread - regulations and corruption go hand in hand in China. Need a degree, just go around your local campus and see all the graffiti telephone numbers which offer fake degrees - an employer can easly obtain one for an unqaulified employee at nearly no cost!! New regulations for some employers might mean having to go after the better qualified - but for many I'm sure it means a bit more cash under the table - very much on topic.

By the way for the experienced this might be old tired news - but for the newbie this kind of info paints a picture of what they will find out here - something they will fully come to understand after a year or so when they have picked up a bit of the language and have made local friends. They may come to understand that laws and regulations certainly aren't to be flaunted - but in China they are to be understood in a whole different way. But then that really is for another thread, which should be called - guanxi Laughing

clark.w.griswald · Joined: 06 Dec 2004 Posts: 2056

andrew_gz · Joined: 15 Feb 2005 Posts: 502 Location: Reborn in the PRC

clark wrote, "Very few foreign teachers who teach in China experience or are affected by corruption"

Ridiculous!

Most of us owe our jobs and our continued presence to corruption in one form or another. (but then again most Chinese people's ideas about corruption differ from ours)

cj750 · Joined: 27 Apr 2004 Posts: 3081 Location: Beijing

Ricepaddy · Joined: 14 May 2003 Posts: 219

vikdk · Joined: 25 Jun 2003 Posts: 1676

Clark could you define a legal FT in China - I'm sure if we dug a little deeper we would find many of those Z teachers got their employment permits via the bosses backhanders - Shizer only the other day I was told about a teacher who was described on his Z as a "culture worker"!!!!

So get real Clark - if you're trying to attract new teachers to your school (and the others on your site) please, please, please paint an accurate picture of what goes on here. Of course there are laws and rules - just like those named by the OP - but the employers here are very efficient at dodging them, while authourities - if viewed as individual people representing their own personal needs rather than any national interest - seem to be damn hard and efficient workers when it comes to helping those bosses dodge their way around the legal pitfalls education bussiness - but of course at a cost (corruption)! So if on those occasions you are appalled by the standard of help when having to personally do bussiness with the PSB or others - remember this could be because those officials regard this type of work as a tiresom side line that gets in the way of the more profitable stuff, not of any real interest - but try getting a friend in the PSB and take them out to dinner a few times buy them a couple of presents - just see how things change Laughing

Now before you go balistic Clark and say I'm encouraging FT's to feed corruption - well I'm not, because for the ordinary FT there is usually no need for them ever to have such close dealing with the powers above - all this is usually done by your bosses. But just because you think everything is kosher - and Clark tells you things are hunky dory here - well the true picture maybe a little cloudier!!!

Roger · Joined: 19 Jan 2003 Posts: 9138

clark.w.griswald · Joined: 06 Dec 2004 Posts: 2056

It seems that I need to clarify what I am referring to as corruption. I am referring to government officials acting contrary to regulations for personal financial gain. I do understand that there are many other cases of corruption, such as actions for personal gain (i.e. promotion), but my comments about corruption only relate to the taking of bribes. I make this distinction as it seems to me that when most people complain about corruption here they are suggesting that the official acted in a certain way as he or she was getting a backdoor payment to do so.

In the case of illegal teachers I do not believe that PSB corruption as stated above is a result of backdoor or otherwise illegal payments to officials, but more often a result of the officials not adequately understanding what they are supposed to do, or not wanting to actually get off their backsides and do it.

I think that Roger has helped to make my point about corruption not affecting most foreign teachers, despite what some people would have you believe. Yes it is out there, and yes it is a problem, but I think that the problem that relates to the lives of most foreign teachers is complacency of public officials, not corruption! In the case at hand, the fact that there are illegal teachers in China, is in my opinion more to do with complacency of officials not doing their jobs than it is a case of these officials accepting payments to look the other way.

NB: I just realized that the word 'bribe' probably more correctly covers my point of view so feel free to replace the word 'corruption' with 'bribe' in my posts and see if you still disagree.

tofuman · Joined: 02 Jul 2004 Posts: 937

Clark,

Good job in defining "corruption" as skirting laws for personal financial gain. The PSB officer who grants a Z visa to someone without a bachelor's degree is certainly not enriching him or herself in most cases. They are simply complying with the spirit of the law, that spirit being the placing of native English speakers before Chinese students. A published writer with six years of college and verbal reasoning skills in the 90th percentile is usually going to be qualified to teach conversational English to Chinese students, bachelor's degree or not.

The legalistic nitpickers who value the letter of the law above the spirit of the law are morons. I find it ironic that one of the most zealous proponents of a law and order approach to hiring English teachers is himself not a native speaker and has obvious and gross problems comprehending written English and probably spoken as well, depending on the subject matter and vocabulary of the speaker.

These types pollute any field in which they work, sticklers for the observance of laws and statutes, but themselves less "qualified" than those they condemn.

bdawg · Joined: 25 Feb 2004 Posts: 526 Location: Nanjing