Job Discussion Forums

[fluffyhamster]

Just noticed that you wrote this too, Henry:

[Stephen Jones]

Part of the reason you may not have understood my post, Henry, is that it was truncated. I have now edited it.

Incidentally stillnosheep, whilst I agree with your general point, you will be, rightfully pulled up by Henry for suggesting Roman Emperer be hyphenated. We are talking about two-word phrases used to modify a noun, and Roman Emporer does not cut the mustard. Holy Roman Emperor does qualify, but there is a rule that says titles are not hyphenated.

Perhaps we ought to let The Onion have the last word. Copy Editor's Revenge Takes Form Of Unhyphenated Word http://www.theonion.com/content/node/45800[/i]

[stillnosheep]

[Henry_Cowell]

[Stephen Jones]

Regarding what I mean about hyphens in titles, I can't dig out the 'rule' I came across whilst browsing to find info for this thread, but here is a quote from the FAQ of the Chicago Manual of Style. http://www.press.uchicago.edu/Misc/Chicago/cmosfaq/cmosfaq.HyphensEnDashesEmDashes.html

Q. In a previous Q&A, a curious reader asked you to weigh in on the subject of hyphenated Americans. You responded that �CMS prefers not to hyphenate Americans of any sort, even when they appear in an adjective phrase.� Were it actually an adjectival phrase, like �apathetic Americans,� I would be inclined to agree; however, I maintain that the examples �African-American,� �Asian-American,� and even �Native-American� (or as I prefer, American-Indian) are all compound proper nouns and must be hyphenated. They are not merely Americans who happen to be African, but rather African-Americans�a distinct ethnic and cultural group. Irrefutable logic?

A. I don�t see any logic in requiring the hyphenation of compound proper nouns when they are used as adjectives. In fact, because they are capitalized, there is no need for additional bells and whistles to signal that they belong together: Rocky Mountain trails, New Hampshire maple syrup, SpongeBob SquarePants lunchbox.

Now, to add to the fun, the Chicago Manual insists you hyphenate Vice-President Cheney and the AP manual insists you don't!

[Stephen Jones]

Here's another quote on hyphens in proper names. http://www.nyu.edu/classes/copyXediting/Hyphens.html
Compounds formed with unhyphenated proper names are always open: Civil War literature, Latin American history, Old English alphabet

Do not confuse with prefix forms of proper names: Austro-Hungarian empire, Russo-Japanese war, Sino-Soviet split

[Henry_Cowell]

Stephen,

You can quote all the "rules" you wish, but the rules you cite don't deal with titles. They merely deal with proper names that modify common adjectives. The original example you quoted, however, was indeed a full title: Holy Roman Emperor. There would never be a question of hyphenating this construction because a hyphen isn't necessary. There is no need for an additional element (a hyphen) to join the words.

The term "vice-president" is also different. It is not a noun + noun compound or an adjective + noun compound. It is a simple prefix ("vice-") added to a noun. If a prefix is hyphenated when it is lowercase (vice-president), then it is also hyphenated when it is uppercase (as in the title "Vice-President"). Hence the CMS guideline.

According to the loony AP guideline, "Vice President" Cheney is president of vice -- which makes perfect sense, doesn't it?

[Stephen Jones]

[Henry_Cowell]