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stillnosheep
Joined: 01 Mar 2004
Posts: 2068
Location: eslcafe
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 Posted: Wed Mar 08, 2006 5:03 am Post subject: |
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| Scott Denham wrote: |
| Grow up. The OP was just posting some interesting posters [...] If you have something constructive to say about the nature of Russian propaganda, then that would be great, but if you're just going to ... you should find one of the thousands of political boards on the net and not one devoted to ESL and the discussion of the cultures in which ESL takes place. |
Oh dear. oh dear, oh dear. Your (possibly feigned) innocence is touching. Are you by any chance very young?.
'Just posting some interesting posters.' Ha ha ha ha. That the OP was trying to score political points is clear from subsequent posts. Unfortunately for the OP the 'crimes' he attributes to past Soviet propaganda are just as easily attributable to the OP. Which is why the OP got called out.
Btw. As soviet Russia no longer exists, ESL teaching no longer takes place there; unlike, of course, in the US. The OPs point was "Russia bad, America good." As such it was vacuous and inaccurate, and got called as such.
PS. It was exactly because I did "have summat constructive to say" about the Soviet propoganda. I.e. That its pictures of the South Bronx were accurate and that GK's own post was equally a case of propoganda, according to GKs defiition - and made for the same purposes - that this argument kicked off.
GK attempted to score a cheap political point. It backfired. End of story.
Last edited by stillnosheep on Wed Mar 08, 2006 5:21 am; edited 2 times in total |
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stillnosheep
Joined: 01 Mar 2004
Posts: 2068
Location: eslcafe
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| Posted: Wed Mar 08, 2006 5:11 am Post subject: Good luck with the retreat from Moscow.... |
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| GabeKessel wrote: |
| The USA generates loathing but it also generates great admiration. So many women around the world want to marry an American. So many people want to come and live in the USA...America means 'becoming rich' to people. It means big cars...Russia to the rest of the world means poverty |
And your point is....?
Or are you daft enough to believe that being richer (and thus more attractive to others who wish to become richer) is somehow to be equated with being better?
Russians, on the whole, are intelligent enough to see through the propoganda peddled them in the past. Would that the same were true of GabeKessel.
Still fighting the pro-Hitler, anti-Soviet, WWII good fight eh Gabe. Good luck with the retreat from Moscow.... |
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GabeKessel
Joined: 27 Sep 2004
Posts: 150
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| Posted: Sat Mar 11, 2006 8:43 am Post subject: Re: Good luck with the retreat from Moscow.... |
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| And your point is....? |
My point is that even with all the criticism of it, the US still seems to be a much more popular country than Russia. If you add all the bad thing said about the US and all the good things, you will still come out ahead of Russia. I rarely hear anything good about Russia.
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| Or are you daft enough to believe that being richer (and thus more attractive to others who wish to become richer) is somehow to be equated with being better? |
Well, surely, you are not going to tell me that "poorer" means better, at least, not to your average Joe Human. It may be better to someone who has a high salary to spend in a poor country, but Russia's poverty does not hold much appeal to anyone, really. Except those who like to spend their First World earnings there.
It is not just about becoming rich, it is about the whole spirit of America; the freedom, the ambitiousness, the can-do spirit is what attracts the world, the technology, the whole message of aspiring to be ahead. Whether is is better is a matter of personal taste, but you will surely agree that for the majority of the world, America is better, and Russia is simply seen as a loser. Which is supported by the fact that few people want to learn Russian, few people want to go and live there, and even fewer are interested in the culture. Now, if you ask anyone knowledgable how many people are interested in the American culture, the number will surely be in hundreds of millions
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| Russians, on the whole, are intelligent enough to see through the propoganda peddled them in the past. |
The Intelligentsia classes are. Not your average Ivan Ivanovich. These swallowed it hook, line and sinker.
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| Would that the same were true of GabeKessel. |
Just looked at both countries, seen the good and the bad and compared. America beats Russia hands down if only by the number of people who are interested in the former and do not care about the latter.
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Still fighting the pro-Hitler, anti-Soviet, WWII good fight eh Gabe. Good luck with the retreat from Moscow |
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The site I showed you was a modern site, probably put out by some hardliners- old communists, a year or two ago, who are still fighting for their goals. So, my reponse was in regards to these 'modern' activities.
Last edited by GabeKessel on Sun Mar 12, 2006 12:16 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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stillnosheep
Joined: 01 Mar 2004
Posts: 2068
Location: eslcafe
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| Posted: Sat Mar 11, 2006 9:36 am Post subject: |
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Neither 'poorer' nor 'richer' mean better Gabe; they mean 'poorer' and 'richer'.
So far all you have done is repeat your statement that the US is richer both than Russia now is, and than the USSR was.
And...?
Your point is...?
Unless of course you equate 'richer' with 'morally superior'. In which case of course you are just as much in the sway of the propoganda-machine of the rich elite in the USA as are a few misguided Russians to the propoganda of a past elite in their country.
Or you are still fighting the good old WWII fascist anti-commie fight.
In which case good luck on the retreat from Moscow. |
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Pollux
Joined: 04 Jan 2006
Posts: 224
Location: PL
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| Posted: Sat Mar 11, 2006 3:23 pm Post subject: |
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| The post WW2 sway in central Europe, although over the top, was understandable: many of the occupied nations had joined Hitler's invasion of Russia. |
Please name one of the many. |
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Pollux
Joined: 04 Jan 2006
Posts: 224
Location: PL
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| Posted: Sat Mar 11, 2006 3:51 pm Post subject: |
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What is the point?
Your neighbour and his Border Collie are busy tending the herd. You're busy taking photos where and when he craps. Then you complain that you still have no sheep.
Try Berkeley, they will understand you.
Last edited by Pollux on Sat Mar 11, 2006 9:10 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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coledavis
Joined: 21 Jun 2003
Posts: 1838
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| Posted: Sat Mar 11, 2006 8:07 pm Post subject: culture? |
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Up to now, Gabekessel, I've argued with you but have generally been in sympathy with your interesting outlook. However, although it's stating the obvious that a lot of Russians leave for the west (including USA) to escape poverty, your point about culture is laughable. Nobody ever went to USA for the culture! Although this is an impression, I believe Russians tend to be keener on British culture than American; this may difffer in Russian Far East where there are closer links with the US. Lots of people - who wouldn't dream of even visiting Russia - love its literature (including soviet-era writers such as Bulgakov) and its music (similar point).
Two personal preferences. I do enjoy American literature; although my favourite, Mark Twain, was at his most interesting when inveighing against the growth of American capitalist culture (A Connecticut Yankee at King Arthur's Court). My other point is that I am thinking of going to Russia to live, hence my interest in TEFL. |
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coledavis
Joined: 21 Jun 2003
Posts: 1838
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| Posted: Sat Mar 11, 2006 8:38 pm Post subject: loser |
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| By the way, the term loser may have more meaning to Americans with their famous dreamer, but to me it's a rather limited concept. |
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GabeKessel
Joined: 27 Sep 2004
Posts: 150
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| Posted: Sun Mar 12, 2006 12:26 pm Post subject: Re: culture? |
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| Nobody ever went to USA for the culture! |
What I meant by culture is the 'popular' culture. US music, way of dressing, fashion, etc. California surfer's culture. Black American culture which is imitated by Africans and Afro-Carribeans. Watch Nairobi MTV- see those Africans rapping! That is what I mean. American music is on the airwaves around the world. American jeans are worn by everybody now. America is a trend-setter.
And you should have seen the crowds of Japanese who went to the US for culture in the 1980ies.
Now who is listening to Russian music?
The Russian literature is great but most young ( and so many not young) people today do not read that much.
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| Although this is an impression, I believe Russians tend to be keener on British culture than American; |
Yes, that is true because Britain is closer. Now, are Brits keen on Russian culture? Do they know the names of Russian pop-stars even? Who is more keen on whose culture?
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| this may difffer in Russian Far East where there are closer links with the US. |
Yes, but it is still a one way street. Most Americans do not listen to Russian music, eat Russian food or even know one name of a Russian music band. Now why is there so little attraction for things Russian?
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| Lots of people - who wouldn't dream of even visiting Russia - love its literature (including soviet-era writers such as Bulgakov) and its music (similar point). |
Some serious intellectuals do. A dwindling community nowadays. Most common masses are hungry for things American and imitate America more than any other country. |
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GabeKessel
Joined: 27 Sep 2004
Posts: 150
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| Posted: Sun Mar 12, 2006 12:32 pm Post subject: Re: loser |
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| coledavis wrote: |
| By the way, the term loser may have more meaning to Americans with their famous dreamer, but to me it's a rather limited concept. |
To 'you' it may be. But most people around the world do not like countries that are poor and unsuccessul. Try travelling around the world as an American and as a Russian and let's see who will be treated better by an average person anywhere. |
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GabeKessel
Joined: 27 Sep 2004
Posts: 150
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| Posted: Sun Mar 12, 2006 12:54 pm Post subject: |
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| Neither 'poorer' nor 'richer' mean better Gabe; they mean 'poorer' and 'richer'. |
To an average poorer person, 'poorer' does not mean better. 'Poor' does not mean 'good'. Have you been one? I have. 'Richer' does mean 'better'. To people who suffer under governments that rob them and cannot provide necessary services or freedoms, to people who live in disorganized societies that are crime-ridden and corrupt, a country that will provide more money, better services, more freedom, and better organization is 'better'. That is why millions are coming to the US yearly.
You may not be attracted to the US, but scores of people in the Third World are beating a path to the US door.
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| So far all you have done is repeat your statement that the US is richer both than Russia now is, and than the USSR was. |
I have said that it is more popular in the the world because it represents success to many people from poorer and less organized countries. Now, to a Swiss man, or a Luxembourger, the US may not be better, that is why you do not see so many of them coming to America. But if the Russians could get the visa to go to the US, hordes of them would be getting on the plane tomorrow. Not the richer of them, but many of those who cannot make it in Russia would.
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And...?
Your point is...? |
America, because of its many successes is still far more popular destination than Russia for many many people. It is still a much greater source of admiration and bigger dream for millions of people around the world than Russia ever was.
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| Unless of course you equate 'richer' with 'morally superior'. |
I am talking about 'quality of life' for an average person as compared to Russia, I am talking about greater admiration and attraction because of the whole, more positive life philosophy in the culture of America and its winning, can-do spirit.
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| In which case of course you are just as much in the sway of the propoganda-machine of the rich elite in the USA as are a few misguided Russians to the propoganda of a past elite in their country. |
I am only observing what I see and hear and state facts. I am also talking in relative terms, not absolutes. America has many problems and it does have a propaganda machine. But even inspite of that, I am simply talking about which country is more attractive to more people. Everywhere in the world you go, you see symbols of America in the way people dress, the food they eat, the music they listen to. They are not being forced to watch American movies; they want to. They are not being forced to eat hamburgers; they want to. They are not being forced to wear blue jeans, rap or put on baseball caps- they want to. They are not forced to smoke Marlboros. They again want to. Now, where do you see people buying 'Belomor Kanal' outside of the CIS? Or stacking up on 'Kvas'?
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| Or you are still fighting the good old WWII fascist anti-commie fight. |
How is showing that America's culture and reputation is ahead of Russia in the world fighting a 'fascist' fight? Wasn't Hitler against the US? And I am not even talking about anything political here. I am talking about the reputation of these two countries. Cultural, mostly. It is not about being anti-commie or even pro-American. It is about trying to see which country is liked more by more people. And America is.
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| In which case good luck on the retreat from Moscow. |
Thank God I can fight my " fascist fight " electronically without having to go there. Bless the Internet, another American invention. |
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coledavis
Joined: 21 Jun 2003
Posts: 1838
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| Posted: Sun Mar 12, 2006 1:38 pm Post subject: |
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Culture as pop culture; ok, this is one of those 'what is art' questions. Although if you do accept this as an argument - and I'm not sure that I do - then the British are as important (or more, if you're including the music
of the 60s and 70s as well as contemporary).
Again, the literature question is also circumscribed by the point about 'well, who reads anyway?' There's no point playing that one. The people who don't read (and I gather this trend is also overtaking many of Russia's young people, by the way) aren't going to read Russian literature, but they're also going to eschew English, French, American and any other literature. Unless we're going down the populist road of 'well, rap lyrics
are literature'...
With regard to 'most Americans' not eating/reading/listening to Russians. Sorry to stereotype, but (and I travelled around most of the States some decades ago), most Americans don't pay attention to any countries beyond their own federation.
Which brings me to the one comment of yours that I agree with: Yes, of course there are intellectuals in America. My comments, and yours, are necessarily general.
On winners and losers. SOME people will treat people according to their dress sense and wallet. I'm not well-heeled and, yes, I'm cold-shouldered by the arrogant/trend-obsessed, yet the type of people that I tend to value recognise me as a thinking and socially helpful individual. The types you think of as 'average' are indeed that.
No, people aren't physically forced to consume American products. And yes, here in Britain a lot of people accept these brands, especially the young. But much of this loyalty is bought by heavily funded advertising; big companies can out-market small ones.
'Fascist' is used rather too lightly. Unless they're after a top-down state with no commitment to improving people's lot, with a similarly 'streamlined' attitude to the position of other nations, I won't call people this. And, to extend the argument, I would only call somebody a nazi or neo-nazi if such an approach extended to extreme violence in pursuit of these aims. |
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stillnosheep
Joined: 01 Mar 2004
Posts: 2068
Location: eslcafe
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| Posted: Mon Mar 13, 2006 8:46 am Post subject: |
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| GabeKessel wrote: |
| sns wrote: |
| Neither 'poorer' nor 'richer' mean better Gabe; they mean 'poorer' and 'richer'. |
'Richer' does mean 'better'...That is why millions are coming to the US yearly...scores of people in the Third World are beating a path to the US door.
It is about trying to see which country is liked more by more people. And America is. |
But Gabe richer does not mean better (check your dictionary; the two words have very different meanings). Many people in less developed countries wish to move somewhere that is more developed; richer. No argument there. That does not mean that richer nations are 'better' or morally superior. And it has nothing to do with some so-called 'can-do' spirit (you really believe that?). It just means that America is more wealthy. That is all.
As for being liked by more people, how do you equate that with the Americans throughout the world who resort to plastering their luggage with Canadian flags in an attempt to avoid anti-American hostility?
American popular culture is popular, Yes; American marketeers are very succesful at packaging the myth of the American dream. Again this has nothing to do with the US being better; bigger maybe; more powerful perhaps; richer most certainly. But again not 'better'. |
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paulmanser
Joined: 28 Nov 2005
Posts: 403
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| Posted: Mon Mar 13, 2006 8:55 am Post subject: |
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| I agree there. Why people leave UK for Thailand, Poland to poorer countries. |
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angrysoba
Joined: 20 Jan 2006
Posts: 446
Location: Kansai, Japan
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| Posted: Mon Mar 13, 2006 9:36 am Post subject: |
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Gabe:
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| The USA generates loathing but it also generates great admiration. So many women around the world want to marry an American. So many people want to come and live in the USA. The US gets some 40,000,000 tourists a year because people would love to go and see America- it is so famous. |
That is hilarious. Your defence of the USA is based on it appealing to people's greed? |
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