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MrCAPiTUL
Joined: 06 Feb 2006
Posts: 232
Location: Taipei, Taiwan
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 Posted: Sun Mar 26, 2006 12:59 am Post subject: |
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^^
Meeeeeessage:
She isn't telling anybody not to go. She is actually pretty determined to get me to go. She thinks I'll be very successful there. However, she wants me to go on a student visa to learn the language properly and then parle that knowledge into a more lucrative career.
Meeeeeessage 2:
Those who are taking offense to this post need to readdress your situation. There is probably a likelihood that many J feel this way about you, yet haven't been so forthright in saying it. |
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Speed
Joined: 04 Jul 2003
Posts: 152
Location: Shikoku Land
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| Posted: Sun Mar 26, 2006 2:14 am Post subject: The Real Measure of Success? |
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Mr Capitul
I've enjoyed teaching in both Japan and in the States, but honestly I like teaching in Japan much more. That is why I'm here. Got teaching credentials too - so in your eyes I'm "professional" but I consider my co-workers who teach well "professional" just as well (with or without credentials).
Lived/visited Japan off and on since I was born and the money that I make teaching English is enough to raise a family and save for retirement.
I'm not really sure what makes you think you know what is good or isn't for anybody else. If 250,000 isn't enough for you - fine. If it's fine for others, don't worry about it.
Glenski - about the National Health Insurance, yeah it's about 2,500 yen for the first year, but it doesn't automatically go up 10 Xs the next year.
It'll be based on your previous year's salary and where you live (each city is different). Mine is about 18,000 a month here in Osaka, but was only 11,000 yen a month in my previous city. |
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rai
Joined: 19 Jun 2005
Posts: 119
Location: Osaka
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| Posted: Sun Mar 26, 2006 9:30 am Post subject: |
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| MrCAPiTUL wrote: |
^^
Meeeeeessage:
She isn't telling anybody not to go. She is actually pretty determined to get me to go. She thinks I'll be very successful there. However, she wants me to go on a student visa to learn the language properly and then parle that knowledge into a more lucrative career.
Meeeeeessage 2:
Those who are taking offense to this post need to readdress your situation. There is probably a likelihood that many J feel this way about you, yet haven't been so forthright in saying it. |
Wow, you got all that from talking to your friend's mom?  By the way, since you're only comparing how much money you can make, might I point out that coming here as a STUDENT may not pay quite as well as teaching, well, ANYWHERE? How will you afford your "accustomed lifestyle" then? I guess your friend's mom forgot about that. 
Besides, teaching in Japan means you get to LIVE IN JAPAN. But if all you care about is money, fine, stay home.
T-R-O-L-L |
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canuck
Joined: 11 May 2003
Posts: 1921
Location: Japan
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| Posted: Sun Mar 26, 2006 10:07 am Post subject: |
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| MrCAPiTUL wrote: |
If not, and you are just going for a good time for a year, well then that leads into what my friend's mother said, to some degree.
The point my friend's mother was making:
MOST people that come to Japan do so because, as some have already said in their replies here, they have very few options in their home country. Most, oddly enough, come from 1st rate countries (USA, UK, Aus). |
You think because you have a teaching licence, you are king of the hill and better than many people in Japan? You elitist attitude sticks. Your friend's mother obviously assumes that the moment you set foot on Japanese soil, you too, "couldn't make it in your own country" and "have very few options".
| MrCAPiTUL wrote: |
I used to live in NY (the Bronx) and I am currently living in FL, Tampa Metro area. The cost of a decent 1BR apt is around the $600 mark, no utlities included. Average housing price, about $170,000. |
If it's so rosy in Florida, and you can make it there, why are you even thinking about coming out this way? Is it that you're having trouble financing a 2nd mortgage? Maybe I should move to Florida. In my 5 years in Japan, I already have 75% of the average housing price there in my bank account.  |
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womblingfree
Joined: 04 Mar 2006
Posts: 826
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| Posted: Sun Mar 26, 2006 11:02 am Post subject: |
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| MrCAPiTUL wrote: |
MOST people that come to Japan do so because, as some have already said in their replies here, they have very few options in their home country. Most, oddly enough, come from 1st rate countries (USA, UK, Aus). |
That's just nonsense. Teachers in Japan are almost all graduates and so have all the options open to graduates in their particular field open to them. And it's hardly odd that people come from the US, UK and Aus as this is where native English speakers come from.
If it's a choice between some soul destroying office job in your own country or trying life in Japan then it's a no-brainer for many people.
| canuck wrote: |
| You think because you have a teaching licence, you are king of the hill and better than many people in Japan? |
A teaching licence will help him get into an International school perhaps. But unless the teaching licence specialises in TEFL it will be of little other use in Japan as far as career developement goes. |
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PAULH
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Posts: 4672
Location: Western Japan
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| Posted: Sun Mar 26, 2006 11:29 am Post subject: |
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| MrCAPiTUL wrote: |
^^
Meeeeeessage:
She isn't telling anybody not to go. She is actually pretty determined to get me to go. She thinks I'll be very successful there. However, she wants me to go on a student visa to learn the language properly and then parle that knowledge into a more lucrative career.
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Mr Capitul
Have you ever studied an Asian language such as Chinese Korean or Japanese? Have you ever studied them in a foreign country? I have.
How will you be at learning Japanese, say as compared to a Korean or a Chinese, who both come from Kanji backgrounds, while you come from a Romance language background? Do you know how long it takes the average westerner to learn and memorise Kanji, not to mention some with up to 3 or 4 separate readings? Its a breeze for Chinese, but they have problems with pronunciation and japanese grammar.
I studied oral Japanese at ECC in my second year here in an intermediate class and I could barely keep up with the pace of the lesson. 80% of other students are Asians. Yes you can learn Japanese in japan but studying head to head with Asian students and a Japanese teacher working at their speed, they will be streets ahead of you in no time. Keep in mind who you will be studying with and the obstacles you face here learning a completely new grammar, writing system and vocabulary that has NO resemblance to English. Im not you, but unless you have a good grounding in how to learn languages and in particular asian languages liek Chinese that use Kanji you will be in for a rough time at a language school, keeping up with the class.
Second, you learn to speak and master Japanese good enough for business. What are you going to do with the Japanese you learn? What is this career that you speak of? Japan has 120 million native speakers. It would be like a Japanese student coming to American to study English so he can make a career. You will notice Japanese students are in MBA CPA and business programs and study English so they can get trhough business school. There are thousands of people here with Level 1 and 2 Japanese, 2000 Kanji under their belts, but can not get a job outside language teaching as they have nothing extra to offer employers apart from a gift of Nihongo. They can not even break into translating and bilingual Japanese people with skills are a dime a dozen.
To make it here you have to have a particular skill and training that Japanese will pay you a salary for. Japanese ability is icing on the cake, and Japanese wont pay just because you can speak Japanese, as there are MILLIONS of native speakers here already. Think about it a minute. Japanese ability wont pay the rent. Teaching English does for many people and they do something that most Japanese can not and will not do i.e teach oral English. |
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MrCAPiTUL
Joined: 06 Feb 2006
Posts: 232
Location: Taipei, Taiwan
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| Posted: Sun Mar 26, 2006 12:44 pm Post subject: |
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Paul, thanks for the info.
However, I'm not going to take the student visa. I've turned that offer down. Financially, it wouldn't be prudent w/a family in tow. As you've mentioned, for me to keep up I'd be busting my ass. That, in turn, would cut down on my work prospects, which would already be limited via the 28 hour work rule. I'll just have to keep studying the language here until I can find suitable employment overseas. If it happens it happens, if it doesn't it doesn't. I'm really not pressing it. Don't get me wrong, I want to live overseas - but I refuse to rush it. When all the pieces of the puzzle jive, then I'll make those moves.
As far as a more lucrative career goes, she knows I was going for an advanced degree in International Commerce. I had actually had a good plan regarding that - learn the language well, intern with a Japanese financial instituation - or an American institution with Japaese offices (ie Goldman Sachs) - and then land a job doing Mid-level analyst/management type work w/whichever company I interned for. Most likely, the J company would end up sending me back to the States to conduct business for them because I wouldn't need a Visa.
But, I truly enjoy teaching. How does a good understanding of the language help my teaching career? Well, it opens up doors that weren't opened before. Uni jobs would open up to me, as would other school jobs. Basically, it creates more and better opportunities. Not too mention, I can pass the knowledge on to my daughter, which is a gain in-and-of itself. |
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PAULH
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Posts: 4672
Location: Western Japan
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| Posted: Sun Mar 26, 2006 1:11 pm Post subject: |
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| MrCAPiTUL wrote: |
| As far as a more lucrative career goes, she knows I was going for an advanced degree in International Commerce. I had actually had a good plan regarding that - learn the language well, intern with a Japanese financial instituation - or an American institution with Japaese offices (ie Goldman Sachs) - and then land a job doing Mid-level analyst/management type work w/whichever company I interned for. Most likely, the J company would end up sending me back to the States to conduct business for them because I wouldn't need a Visa. |
So basically it comes down to you tossing up whether you want to be a banker doing a highly paid job that you dont particularly enjoy but has high status and income, versus a grunt teaching job you wouldnt recommend your own daughter to go into as a career here. Im not a banker and i dont know how hard it is to get into that field, but most people in the field are mid-level qualified expats with work experience etc in the US and are headhunted for their companies. A few work their way up the ranks. Would you intern and then vault into a middle-management position just becuase you have a Masters degree? Im not aware they do things like that here, but shuffle people around different departments until they know all aspects of the business. I know Japanese managers get sent to work in the boonie branch in Kyushu for five years before they get promoted.
learning the language well will take you four or five years full-time. You seem to think it will magically take a year or two. I went from zero japanese to level 2 of the proficiency exam in 3 years. thats about 800 Kanji and 5,000 vocabualry. the same level as your average 5th grader. Still not enough for doing business here. Level 1 is 10,000 vocabulary,about 2,000 Kanji. expect about 3-4 years of solid study to reach that level. thats 2 hours a day, every day for 2 years. I speak Japanese well, not fluently and can manage in most everyday situations. You have to also deal with being a japanese speaking foreigner and what that entails. Many Japanese dont think foreigners can and should speak japanese. an invisible barrier exists between foreigners and Japanese. Yes you can talk to people, it doesnt mean they want to talk to you.
As for sending you back to the US, don't hold your breath. they send the most qualified people and they can train Japanese people to speak English. You are forgetting Japan is an island country and still has an insular island nation mentality. Many older Japanese would be quite happy if all the foreigners left Japan and you will always l feel like an outsider in a Japanese company.
| Quote: |
| But, I truly enjoy teaching. How does a good understanding of the language help my teaching career? Well, it opens up doors that weren't opened before. Uni jobs would open up to me, as would other school jobs. Basically, it creates more and better opportunities. Not too mention, I can pass the knowledge on to my daughter, which is a gain in-and-of itself. |
Uni jobs (speaking from experience,I'm full time here) Japanese ability is expected and in fact I'm filling out a job application which required me to write an 800 Kanji report on how I would teach a university class, in Japanese. I use japanese at work, with office staff, keep office hours etc, and as i say, you have to have skills that employers need. A US teaching licence is not worth much here and is not even recognised in Japan, except at international schools. Universities here require a masters in english, Linguistics, TESOL or a related subject. High school jobs require you are in japan and have experience teaching Japanese students, hence you have all these JETS and ALTs earning their wings waiting for their lucky break, not cooling their heels in Miami. The good jobs here come from connections, timing luck and having qualifications people ask for as well as a valid work visa. I get lots of people asking about uni jobs but many dont have a Masters and cant apply or dont have publications.
Im not saying the things you mention are impossible but they are labor intensive and take a long time to achieve. Its good to set goals, but it kind of reminds me of the Min of Ed saying that Japanese should learn about English for 6 years in school before they try to speak it . By high school its way too late to acquire any meaningful proficiency.
Last edited by PAULH on Sun Mar 26, 2006 2:48 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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canuck
Joined: 11 May 2003
Posts: 1921
Location: Japan
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| Posted: Sun Mar 26, 2006 1:55 pm Post subject: |
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| MrCAPiTUL wrote: |
As far as a more lucrative career goes, she knows I was going for an advanced degree in International Commerce. I had actually had a good plan regarding that - learn the language well, intern with a Japanese financial instituation - or an American institution with Japaese offices (ie Goldman Sachs) - and then land a job doing Mid-level analyst/management type work w/whichever company I interned for. Most likely, the J company would end up sending me back to the States to conduct business for them because I wouldn't need a Visa.
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Good luck.
As far as a more lucrative career goes for me, I'm planning on hitting the batting cage every second Friday. I actually had a good plan regarding that - study some Japanese, take a few swings, then intern with a Japanese team like the Hanshin Tigers - or an American team (ie the Seattle Mariners) - and then land a job hanging out with Ichiro/hitting near the top of the order type work w/whichever company I decided to play/intern for. Most likely, the J company (the Hanshin Tigers) would end up sending me back tot the States to play with the Mariners and sell more t-shirts up here in Japan because I wouldn't need a Visa (card). |
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womblingfree
Joined: 04 Mar 2006
Posts: 826
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| Posted: Sun Mar 26, 2006 2:24 pm Post subject: |
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| MrCAPiTUL wrote: |
| How does a good understanding of the language help my teaching career? Well, it opens up doors that weren't opened before. Uni jobs would open up to me, as would other school jobs. |
Uni jobs require an MA in TEFL or Applied Linguistics, so unless you do one there's not much hope there.
Working in the Japanese high school you would be an ALT which has an average salary and where you are almost always employed through a dispatch company.
Neither of the above situations would change if you learned Japanese.
The only teaching job where your previous teaching experience is relevant would be teaching at an International school. You'll need an education degree relevant to the subject you'll be teaching and a few years experience. |
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PAULH
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Posts: 4672
Location: Western Japan
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| Posted: Sun Mar 26, 2006 2:32 pm Post subject: |
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What opens up better jobs in universities:
relevant masters degree and/or a PhD
college or university teaching experience in Japan
publications and academic presentations
conversational fluency in Japanese (JLPT 2 recommended)
ability to sift through job ads in Japanese
connections
LUCK. |
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chirp
Joined: 03 Dec 2005
Posts: 148
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| Posted: Sun Mar 26, 2006 2:43 pm Post subject: |
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Canuck,
That's a great plan! Can I get your autograph before you become a famous and wealthy baseball player?  |
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MrCAPiTUL
Joined: 06 Feb 2006
Posts: 232
Location: Taipei, Taiwan
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| Posted: Sun Mar 26, 2006 5:41 pm Post subject: |
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uh uh. please allow me to clarify. the international commerce route was what I WAS going for. Honestly, I enjoy being a teacher and until I get burnt out, I will remain doing this. Will I go for advanced qualifications? There is a strong likelihood. I wouldn't mind researching cultural implications on language development, or perhaps, something that ties language and business together, like the implications of language on international commercial practices (though, I must admit, I haven't broken any ground or done background research on either of these to see if they are realistic topics/topics that have been tackled thoroughly).
Note, also, that I do not plan to stay in the States forever. I am being patient and prudent, though. I will practice my abilities and continue to learn the language while I'm in Japan, and will get there (Japan) by taking what is, in my eyes, a decent paying job. You've made the faulty assumption that I believe things will happen over night. In fact, I understand it will take quite some time. I will not rush it, though. If it takes 4 years to get where I want to be, then it takes 4 years. If it's less, it's less - if it's more, it's more. As long as I'm making steady progress, growing as a professional, and taking care of my family, I'm doing what I have to do. I'm not letting up in my pursuit of my goals. |
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PAULH
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Posts: 4672
Location: Western Japan
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| Posted: Mon Mar 27, 2006 12:34 am Post subject: |
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| MrCAPiTUL wrote: |
| uh uh. please allow me to clarify. the international commerce route was what I WAS going for. Honestly, I enjoy being a teacher and until I get burnt out, I will remain doing this. Will I go for advanced qualifications? There is a strong likelihood. I wouldn't mind researching cultural implications on language development, or perhaps, something that ties language and business together, like the implications of language on international commercial practices (though, I must admit, I haven't broken any ground or done background research on either of these to see if they are realistic topics/topics that have been tackled thoroughly). |
speaking as a university educator (and they are the only ones who do 'research' for publication) university teachers research anything and everything related to language teaching. The JALT teachers group in Japan has about 15 different special interest groups related to language teaching- CALL, linguistics, cross-cultural pragmatics, Sociolinguistics, Teaching children, ESP for teaching businessmen. Anything is possible. You can study these things out of interest, but at the end of the day you have to consider what you are being paid to do as an ESL teacher here. If you want to teach businessmen you will be teaching communication and conversation, TOEIC etc in some company. Maybe relating the company's business to their language needs. In a university you will be teaching first and second year freshmen oral communication and conversation mostly, and most students speak next to NO English. in my classes I teach four language skills (reading, writing, listening and speaking) as well as TOEIC, the odd business English class and also teach cross-cultural studies. This year I plan to teach a content-based class in English about living in a foreign country (New Zealand) using my country as a model. The course content is about culture in foreign countries. Maybe you get students studying for MBAs and need English for business etc. You can do academic 'research' and there are many books available on how to set up a research study. Im now in a postgraduate degree program conducting research and Abufletcher teaches graduate native speakers here.
| Quote: |
| Note, also, that I do not plan to stay in the States forever. I am being patient and prudent, though. I will practice my abilities and continue to learn the language while I'm in Japan, and will get there (Japan) by taking what is, in my eyes, a decent paying job. |
I wish you the best of luck, but you must also assume you have skills that employers and universities here actually want for which they will pay you a high salary. Corporate jobs require relevant experience and buisness qualifications, not just on paper. Do you know what the high paying jobs here are? Mostly university teachers here have salaries start at around $50K a year and go up to $US80K depending on experience age and qualifications. I would make sure you find out what skills are needed for such high paying jobs rather than study business and find your skills are not in demand. Doing research on commerce and language for publication is fine, but you still need a TESOL degree to get hired at a university.
| Quote: |
| You've made the faulty assumption that I believe things will happen over night. In fact, I understand it will take quite some time. I will not rush it, though. If it takes 4 years to get where I want to be, then it takes 4 years. If it's less, it's less - if it's more, it's more. As long as I'm making steady progress, growing as a professional, and taking care of my family, I'm doing what I have to do. I'm not letting up in my pursuit of my goals. |
I wish you the best of luck whatever you do. |
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yamanote senbei
Joined: 28 Jun 2005
Posts: 435
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| Posted: Wed Apr 05, 2006 7:32 am Post subject: |
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The best way to fight it is to join and participate in your local union.
http://nugw.org
Your employer MUST collectively bargain with a union. Employers have no obligation to bargain with individuuals. |
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