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vesuvio
Joined: 13 Mar 2006
Posts: 3
Location: Krakow
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 Posted: Sun Apr 09, 2006 2:37 am Post subject: |
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| *double post* |
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gregoryfromcali
Joined: 25 Feb 2005
Posts: 1207
Location: People's Republic of Shanghai
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| Posted: Sun Apr 09, 2006 3:54 am Post subject: |
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| Guys, there is no reason to get excited. |
I agree add that there is no reason to argue over this, especially when someone is trying to give you sound advice.
When those of us who have worked in Poland post, we are not just posting for the OP.
Alex, others and myself included are simplying trying to set the record straight and give the best advice we can to anyone who wants to come to Poland.
While it's true that any certification is better than no certification, in Poland the CELTA is the most widely recognized because it is from Cambridge and Poles are obesessed with the Cambridge exams.
Unfortunately Paul the world's not a perfect place and some schools will only hire people with a CELTA. Not to mention that the major cities in Central and Eastern Europe are not as desperate you'd think.
Like I said a while back. For example, although I and other North Americans may be just as good as someone teaching at the British Council it's not very likely they will hire us.
So unless we work at an international school, where the qualifications are even higher than at the British Council, it's not very likely we'll make the kind of cash the British Council offers.
Which is funny because on the one hand the British Council says that English is an international language, but somehow sees 330,000,000 North Americans as unqualified from working for them.
(Am I upset about this? Not really. I just have to accept it, although if I could get a job with that kind of money I would have gotten the DELTA and stayed in Poland. But that door's closed for me so I went elsewhere for awhile. But I'll back, using my tact, with some mack daddy money to buy a flat in Krak.)
In China I work for one of the top schools out of Cambridge as a result of working for the same chain in Poland.
I choose them because I like the organization but also because some schools in China won't hire me because I don't have blond hair and blues eyes.
It's unfair world and although you and Alex are going back and forth, I can understand his frustration. He's basically trying to give you and others advice on working in Poland, but for reason you seem resistant to what he has to say.
Just say dobrze.
Last edited by gregoryfromcali on Sun Apr 09, 2006 4:14 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Khrystene
Joined: 17 Apr 2004
Posts: 271
Location: WAW, PL/SYD, AU
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| Posted: Sun Apr 09, 2006 10:30 am Post subject: |
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| gregoryfromcali wrote: |
I agree add that there is no reason to argue over this, especially when someone is trying to give you sound advice.
When those of us who have worked in Poland post, we are not just posting for the OP.
Alex, others and myself included are simplying trying to set the record straight and give the best advice we can to anyone who wants to come to Poland.
While it's true that any certification is better than no certification, in Poland the CELTA is the most widely recognized because it is from Cambridge and Poles are obesessed with the Cambridge exams.
Unfortunately Paul the world's not a perfect place and some schools will only hire people with a CELTA. Not to mention that the major cities in Central and Eastern Europe are not as desperate you'd think.
Like I said a while back. For example, although I and other North Americans may be just as good as someone teaching at the British Council it's not very likely they will hire us.
So unless we work at an international school, where the qualifications are even higher than at the British Council, it's not very likely we'll make the kind of cash the British Council offers.
Which is funny because on the one hand the British Council says that English is an international language, but somehow sees 330,000,000 North Americans as unqualified for working for them.
(Am I upset about this? Not really. I just have to accept it, although if I could get a job with that kind of money I would have gotten the DELTA and stayed in Poland. But that door's closed for me so I went elsewhere for awhile. But I'll back, using my tact, with some mack daddy money to buy a place in Krak. Sometimes you just got to say dobrze.)
In China I work for one of the top schools out of Cambridge as a result of working for the same chain in Poland.
I choose them because I like the organization but also because some schools in China won't hire me because I don't have blond hair and blues eyes.
It's unfair world and although you and Alex are going back and forth, I can understand his frustration. He's basically trying to give you and others advice on working in Poland, but for reason you seem resistant to what he has to say.
Just say dobrze. |
I agree for the most part with what you've so coherantly and calmly stated here CaliGreg. I'm sick of being asked questions only to have the advice or my experience POOpooed... yes this is a word... 
As for the British Council, well it is the BRITISH Council, not the American Council. And I have to say that, with British English you have a very good basis for speaking English in many more countries around the world. Yes English is a universal language, however for me, British English pushes you just that little bit more and once you learn it, you can adapt to all versions of English throughout the world. IMHO.
Cheers & thanks for the coherence Cali-boy |
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Alex Shulgin
Joined: 20 Jul 2003
Posts: 553
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| Posted: Sun Apr 09, 2006 11:16 am Post subject: |
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| paulmanser wrote: |
| And yes I do respect decent advice from decent ppl, but not snobs or idiots like yourself Alex. |
Yes Paul, that's right, I'm an idiot. I think it is a bad idea to spend more money on a worse course than it is to wait until one is a couple of years older and take the course closer to when one will actually teach. Only an idiot would think that.
| paulmanser wrote: |
| You giving my name is just out of revenge, grow up lol. or petty threat that will count for nil. |
Paul, I really do have better things to do with my time than to give your name to anybody. There are school owners who read this forum, they know your name and already know what to think of you. I was laughing with one of them just last night. Shouldn't worry about though Paul, three years is a long time and you'll have grown up quite a bit by then. |
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Khrystene
Joined: 17 Apr 2004
Posts: 271
Location: WAW, PL/SYD, AU
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| Posted: Sun Apr 09, 2006 11:26 am Post subject: |
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| Paul... jeez, YOU gave us your name and all your details in one of your first posts! Take a pill!!! |
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gregoryfromcali
Joined: 25 Feb 2005
Posts: 1207
Location: People's Republic of Shanghai
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| Posted: Sun Apr 09, 2006 3:45 pm Post subject: |
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| British English you have a very good basis for speaking English in many more countries around the world. Yes English is a universal language, however for me, British English pushes you just that little bit more and once you learn it, you can adapt to all versions of English throughout the world. IMHO. |
What basis do you have for this?
I don't agree at all.
I think the best way to teach English is to expose the student to as many accents as possible. After which they can go anywhere in the world and be able to understand different kinds of people. Besides which if we look at the numbers there are about 5 people who use "I don't have..." for every person who uses "I haven't got..."
Also American English is already the standard in a lot of Asian and Latin American countries. Just turn on the TV, turn on the radio, go to a movie or go to club. Which version of English are you most likely to hear?
As for the British Council, well I do know that they hire Irish teachers as well who aren't from the UK. And whether they're the British council or not is irrelevant, because a job is a job. If I can go to the UK and teach English then why shouldn't I be able to teach English for the British Council if I have a DELTA?
Afterall, after 3 years in Poland and a year in Asia I've taught everything under the sun from kindergarten to business English, from IELTS to the Cambridge exams and everything in between. (I'm not saying I would work for them but it would be nice to have that option since my colleagues do.)
You can call it a cultural difference. But I believe as long as someone is within the law, has the qualification for the job and can do their job well then they should be entitled to that job.
Besides which the sentence stresses in Polish (with the possible exception of Lubelska) is much closer to American than British.
I can sum this whole argument with my favorite ESL joke.
"How do you teach Polish English students to speak with a British accent?"
"You don't."
Again you're entitled to your opinion. I've been surrounded by Brits for my whole ESL career and I can debate this issue for as long as you'd like because I usually have these debates every few weeks as it is, but I find it's usually pointless because even if I prove my point of view the reality is a lot of British teachers feel threatened by American English and as a result are disdainful of it. Basically it comes down to this, people think everyone should speak the way they speak and because of England's history this sentiment seems to even stronger in the English.
But you can't deny that this language is just as much mine as it is yours. My language also came from Britian and just as you don't speak like the queen there is no reason that I should. I've stated my opinions and I'm finished with this thread for now.
Good times.
Last edited by gregoryfromcali on Sun Apr 09, 2006 4:18 pm; edited 3 times in total |
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Pollux
Joined: 04 Jan 2006
Posts: 224
Location: PL
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| Posted: Sun Apr 09, 2006 4:16 pm Post subject: |
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I'm always eager to teach British English because it costs more. 
I'll even teach you URP if you have enough money. |
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paulmanser
Joined: 28 Nov 2005
Posts: 403
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| Posted: Sun Apr 09, 2006 4:35 pm Post subject: |
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My point on this thread was that, you can get a TEFL job in Poland with degree, 4 week TESOL cert eu passport, you know the drill. Only a few will turn me away WHEN I arrive without a CELTA.
Whats the biggy over that remark?
Im after a private school that pays around 2400 to 3600 a month, nothing greater than that. yes a few might turn me away like jobs do here for not ahving CELTA.
if CELTA was only asked for then I TO I would be out of business. |
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stillnosheep
Joined: 01 Mar 2004
Posts: 2068
Location: eslcafe
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| Posted: Sun Apr 09, 2006 7:19 pm Post subject: |
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It is agreat pity that it isn't.
Another reason why the CoTs qualification will never be recognised by employers as being equivalent to a Trinity or Celta is that unlike Trinity or Celta the CoT do not insist that its students either possess a degree or can demonstrate themselves to be of sufficient intellectual standing that they would be capable of earning one.
If I had managed to antagonise just about every intelligent, experienced, educated, trained, knowledgeable treacher with whom I entered into discussions before even starting my EFL training I might pipe down a little with my opinions on courses of which I had no experience whatsoever.
But then again I've been in this game, on and off, a long time.
Last edited by stillnosheep on Tue Apr 11, 2006 6:50 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Khrystene
Joined: 17 Apr 2004
Posts: 271
Location: WAW, PL/SYD, AU
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| Posted: Sun Apr 09, 2006 8:26 pm Post subject: |
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| gregoryfromcali wrote: |
| Quote: |
| British English you have a very good basis for speaking English in many more countries around the world. Yes English is a universal language, however for me, British English pushes you just that little bit more and once you learn it, you can adapt to all versions of English throughout the world. IMHO. |
What basis do you have for this?
I don't agree at all.
I think the best way to teach English is to expose the student to as many accents as possible. After which they can go anywhere in the world and be able to understand different kinds of people. Besides which if we look at the numbers there are about 5 people who use "I don't have..." for every person who uses "I haven't got..."
Also American English is already the standard in a lot of Asian and Latin American countries. Just turn on the TV, turn on the radio, go to a movie or go to club. Which version of English are you most likely to hear?
As for the British Council, well I do know that they hire Irish teachers as well who aren't from the UK. And whether they're the British council or not is irrelevant, because a job is a job. If I can go to the UK and teach English then why shouldn't I be able to teach English for the British Council if I have a DELTA?
Afterall, after 3 years in Poland and a year in Asia I've taught everything under the sun from kindergarten to business English, from IELTS to the Cambridge exams and everything in between. (I'm not saying I would work for them but it would be nice to have that option since my colleagues do.)
You can call it a cultural difference. But I believe as long as someone is within the law, has the qualification for the job and can do their job well then they should be entitled to that job.
Besides which the sentence stresses in Polish (with the possible exception of Lubelska) is much closer to American than British.
I can sum this whole argument with my favorite ESL joke.
"How do you teach Polish English students to speak with a British accent?"
"You don't."
Again you're entitled to your opinion. I've been surrounded by Brits for my whole ESL career and I can debate this issue for as long as you'd like because I usually have these debates every few weeks as it is, but I find it's usually pointless because even if I prove my point of view the reality is a lot of British teachers feel threatened by American English and as a result are disdainful of it. Basically it comes down to this, people think everyone should speak the way they speak and because of England's history this sentiment seems to even stronger in the English.
But you can't deny that this language is just as much mine as it is yours. My language also came from Britian and just as you don't speak like the queen there is no reason that I should. I've stated my opinions and I'm finished with this thread for now.
Good times. |
Perhaps I should have titled it JUST A THEORY... good and bad teachers from both sides. On that I'm sure you'd agree. |
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gregoryfromcali
Joined: 25 Feb 2005
Posts: 1207
Location: People's Republic of Shanghai
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| Posted: Mon Apr 10, 2006 12:34 pm Post subject: |
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| Perhaps I should have titled it JUST A THEORY... good and bad teachers from both sides. On that I'm sure you'd agree. |
I agree.
The most important thing is having a good teacher. It doesn't matter where they're from or what accent they have.
If the teacher is a good teacher and has rapport with the the students, the students will learn that much faster than anything they might be getting by paying three times the normal price.
Good times. |
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Grrrmachine
Joined: 27 Jul 2005
Posts: 265
Location: Warsaw, Poland
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| Posted: Mon Apr 10, 2006 1:12 pm Post subject: |
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| gregoryfromcali wrote: |
| The most important thing is having a good teacher. It doesn't matter where they're from or what accent they have. |
This I agree with wholeheartedly
| gregoryfromcali wrote: |
| If the teacher ... has rapport with the students, the students will learn that much faster than anything they might be getting by paying three times the normal price. |
PURELY in a professional sense (I don't want to be accused of provoking an argument, just a discussion) where is the line drawn for the level of "rapport?" Poles can be alarmingly picky sometimes, demanding serious grammar presented in a light and fresh way. You can't be too jokey, and you can't be too bookish or serious. Where is your balance?
And that question's to everyone, not just you, Greg. I'm interested in how different people approach their classes. |
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gregoryfromcali
Joined: 25 Feb 2005
Posts: 1207
Location: People's Republic of Shanghai
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| Posted: Mon Apr 10, 2006 2:40 pm Post subject: |
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| And that question's to everyone, not just you, Greg. |
Well dust my broom.
Last edited by gregoryfromcali on Wed Apr 12, 2006 6:07 am; edited 5 times in total |
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Khrystene
Joined: 17 Apr 2004
Posts: 271
Location: WAW, PL/SYD, AU
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| Posted: Mon Apr 10, 2006 5:48 pm Post subject: |
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| Grrrmachine wrote: |
| gregoryfromcali wrote: |
| The most important thing is having a good teacher. It doesn't matter where they're from or what accent they have. |
This I agree with wholeheartedly
| gregoryfromcali wrote: |
| If the teacher ... has rapport with the students, the students will learn that much faster than anything they might be getting by paying three times the normal price. |
PURELY in a professional sense (I don't want to be accused of provoking an argument, just a discussion) where is the line drawn for the level of "rapport?" Poles can be alarmingly picky sometimes, demanding serious grammar presented in a light and fresh way. You can't be too jokey, and you can't be too bookish or serious. Where is your balance?
And that question's to everyone, not just you, Greg. I'm interested in how different people approach their classes. |
Personally I think you need to know your limitations. I for one, refuse to be a clown. I'm naturally quite amuzing, or so I like to think *wink* and can have students laughing without acting like the court jester. Which helps with rapport.
I have to admit, this year, I gave up a group of teens, A. because I don't really like teaching teenagers, and, more importantly, B. because they weren't learning from me, and we couldn't develop a good enough rapport. So I quite happily signed them over to the other, older, native speaker in my school. It wasn't working, so I did what was best for them and for me. I don't like torturing myself week in, week out.
The thing is, in a class of 9 to 12 students, not EVERYONE is going to like you. And yes, occasionally ppl will move teachers because of this. No big deal. Such is life. You will never get on with or be liked by everyone.  |
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Grrrmachine
Joined: 27 Jul 2005
Posts: 265
Location: Warsaw, Poland
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| Posted: Mon Apr 10, 2006 6:33 pm Post subject: |
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| Greg, Greg, spokojne. I'm not asking for advice - I have my style and I'm comfortable with it. I'm just wondering how everyone else thinks they teach (stern and serious, joking and laid-back, this kind of thing.) My students pay more attention in my classes because I'm slightly more chilled than their apparently slave-driving Polish teacher (so they've developed a "good cop, bad cop" opinion of us as a pair, which works a treat.) |
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