Job Discussion Forums

[DistantRelative]

Strange how our experiences can be so much different from school to school, locale to locale. At the previous school I taught they actually had a kitty set up that teachers could use to take us out to eat on. It was basically their English lesson. We'd go out to eat at least once a week. Normally about 8 of us at a time. They actually fought over who got to go. I never had a problem socializing there. Never felt used either. Much more enjoyable atmosphere then to ask us to give em a classroom type lesson once a week. They often came into my office and chatted or asked for help with their weekly lesson. A great bunch of people.

Zhuhao

[DistantRelative]

Strange how our experiences can be so much different from school to school, locale to locale. At the previous school I taught they actually had a kitty set up that teachers could use to take us out to eat on. It was basically their English lesson. We'd go out to eat at least once a week. Normally about 8 of us at a time. They actually fought over who got to go. I never had a problem socializing there. Never felt used either. Much more enjoyable atmosphere then to ask us to give em a classroom type lesson once a week. They often came into my office and chatted or asked for help with their weekly lesson. A great bunch of people.

Zhuhao

[Neilhrd]

There are some things you have to understand about China and the Chinese. Firstly communication in China is a one way process. From the foreigner to them when required but never in the other direction.

Secondly don't expect a Chinese person ever to divulge personal information. In nearly two years in China, talking to Chinese people regularly, I have never found a Chinese person willing to tell me what company he/she works for, their birthday, adddress etc.

Thirdly China is what some anthropologists call a "high context culture". Basically that means that they asume you know a lot of things from the context of the conversation which therefore need not be stated openly. For example I have never been introduced by one Chinese person to another. It is quite common to be faced with a room full of strangers many of whom may be related to the one person you know. Unfortunately Chinese uses different terms to adddress people depending on their relationship, age, social status etc so without introductions you are highly likely to make gaffes. The Chinese think this is howlingly funny. I now refuse to attend large group meetings dinners etc to avoid this kind of situation.

Fourthly I disagree with what some posters said about asking for help as a way of breaking the ice. My experience is that Chinese attitudes to help are quite diifferent from those in the West. I am constantly asked for help with all sorts of matters relating to colleagues classes etc. I willingly give this in a common cause and for the sake of the students. But if I ask for anything in return it is always too much trouble. Often I am given the "too busy� bullshit. Other tiimes they just ignore me and start another rival conversation in Chinese with another colleague. I am not sure if this is meant to be offensive. Chinese people often seem to do the same thing to each other and I have heard it said that China has "Polychronic time" which is sociologists jargon for saying that they like to do several things at once. Whatever the truth of that I find it highly offensive and as a result rarely ask for profesional help.

Help with daily life is another issue. All Chinese, esp women, think foreigners are stupid and helplesss people who need to be told how much to eat, when to cross the road, take a piss etc. Asking for help with daily life will reinforce this stereotype. What is more it will play into their hands. Help in China is given and accepted as part of a process of creating and repaying obligations to each other. If you don't wish to be under obligations the extent of which you will never know then avoid asking for help.

In any case asking for help is unlikely to be of much use to you. Simple concepts like giving directions in the street don't exist in China. If you try to ask for directions you will always attract a crowd of befudled locals all pointing you in different directions. Similarly anything technical is fraught with pitfalls. Something as simple as inputting the codes for an international phone card will always require at least six Chinese chattering loudly for half an hour, minimum. When they have finally done it they will then insist on eaves dropping on your conversation.

Asking for professional help is even less likely to be worthwhile. If you can't solve the problem yourself then the chances are it is fairly complex. But the Chiinese can't answer complex or novel questions. Even highly intelligent and educated people here have no reasoniing skills. If they didn't memorise the answer at brainwashing (teacher training) school they won't have a clue and all you are likely to get is an embarassed silence.

Furthermore I have never met a Chinese teacher who has any knowledge of Western jargon for talking about the methodology of teaching and knowledge of metalanguage in English is rare.

Chinese teachers never say yes to a new idea. They are terrified of the unknown, often due to pressure from administrators and parents. They will always come up with many spurious reasons why you can't do whatever it is you are suggesting. Then three months later the idea will resurface as Chinese genius from the management who will insist that everybody does it even although the appropriate situation may long since have passed.

You have to understand that three words do not exist in Chinese namely "yes", "no" and "truth". If you are trying to engage your colleagues in conversation with questions that require a yes or no answer then you are wasting your time. All you will get is waffle. Similarly asking a question which requires a truthful answer is a waste of breath. That also applies to honest expresions of opinion. For centuries in China expressing your opinions could get you executed and nowadays very few Chinese will ever express an opinion about anything. They are often curious about your views but don't expect theirs in return.

My advice is forget any idea of working with Chinese colleagues. You can only hope to work along side them or more usually work round them. This can be done quite sucessfully once you have learned a little of the culture and language and can spot the gaps in their armoury which you can penetrate to create space to express your own ideas in the classroom.

Outside the classroom look, listen and learn about a fascinating culture and people but don't expect to assimilate or be accepted. If you can't take the lonliness that this implies then go home or become an alcoholic as many long term expats here do.

[KarenB]

Well, Neilhrd, I must say, it sounds as if you've had a very negative China experience (either that or you're just a negative person in general?)

I find I must agree with you on some items, such as asking directions.

On the other hand, I can't recall a Chinese person ever telling me that he or she was too busy to help me with something. In fact, I've even had them stop whatever they were doing to help me, even when I didn't ask.

For instance, today, I met one of my colleagues (Rose) in the break between classes. We stopped and chatted for a moment, and then she asked if I had class in the next period, and I said no, that I was on my way to the Dean's office, because I had a question about my schedule for the next week. The question was a little complicated, and Rose asked if I would have trouble communicating with Mr. Liu (the Dean, who doesn't speak English), and I said that if I did, I'd just get Miss Zhong, whose office was next door to Mr. Liu, to translate for me. Well, just to make sure I had no problem, Rose turned around (she was walking to her class) and escorted me to Mr. Liu's office -- quite out of her way, and totally unnecessary.

Most of the time, Rose and I have the kind of friendship that is common among colleagues and neighbors in the West. We visit casually in the evenings, I give her the pomegranites from my tree and she gives me the starfruit from her tree, and we help each other out from time to time. We go to exercise class together, etc. I have similar warm, natural friendships with several other colleagues/neighbors. Of course, I've taught at the same school for 4 years, so the relationships have built up over time.

I've also had Chinese friends share their opinions, even on controversial topics. A recent instance was the case of a Chinese fighter jet that just crashed in a village nearby, and how the government took too long to find the plane (when the villagers knew where it was all along) and share local gossip -- such as Mr. Xing and Ms. Zhong are "at war" and Miss Chen just had an abortion.

Therefore, I must say that I disagree with Neilhrd that true friendships cannot be cultivated with Chinese.

[peterpaul]

I think you just proved the point. We are babies and can do nothing ourselves...

[stillnosheep]

[vikdk]

[amandabarrick]

[KarenB]

I think Yunqi is probably right about Xinpu's problem. I was wondering if the fact that he's at a police academy weren't the problem.

I also know that work units vary from place to place. I've been told this by my Chinese students who have graduated and gone to work, and then changed jobs to another place. One former student said he was making a higher salary at his new job, but wishes he were still at the old job, because his new colleagues are cold and unhelpful.

I somewhat doubt that this is Xinpu's problem, but another thing to consider when Chinese colleagues are aloof is body language and ethnocentricity on the part of the FT. Two of my foreign teacher friends (who teach at two different schools from mine) reported that the teachers at their school are unfriendly. Well, I heard (through the Chinese grapevine) that their Chinese colleagues perceived the FTs to be unfriendly (even though I know this isn't the case, as I've found them to be warm and friendly -- at least with me). The only thing I can figure out is that the Chinese find the body language and/or comments made by these two teachers to be off-putting. Both of these women tend to hunch over and not smile a lot. They tend not to initiate conversations, but wait for people to talk to them first. They both also tend to be critical, and to make frequent comparisons to the way things are done back home.

I know that Chinese are sometimes intimidated by male western body language as well. Chinese tend to hold their arms close to their bodies, while the Western male kind of sprawls out. Since Western males are usually bigger than Chinese anyway, this just seems to intimidate some.

Smiling a lot, emulating Chinese body language, and refraining from negative comments about China can go a long way in building friendships with Chinese.

[xinpu]

Intersting comments - seems I'm not alone in this experience.

I don't think it's the fact that we are working in a Police College. Actually 40% are civillian not Police and they tend to be less open than the others. The 'police' teachers have a fairly secure job as well as (I suspect) more status and perks than the non-police, that may explain why they are a little more 'open'.

I don't agree at all that the reason is 'fear', maybe this could be a reason if we were talking about developing deeper relationships but I'm talking about small talk and greetings...not invitations to hometowns at spring festival.

My own conclusion is that it's Chinese practicality.....if being social with someone has no practical purpose (or advantage) then why waste the time and energy doing it? Westerners are similar in this respect (living in Sydney, London or any big city and you can see this behaviour)..but perhaps we coat it with a few more social niceties.

Having said that I was invited to play in the teachers football team last weekend....unfortunately the written invite was shoved under my door a couple of hours before the game (nobody thought to call me and I wasn't in!!) ...it's the thought that counts I guess!

[vikdk]

not so long ago being social and talking to strangers could get you into big trouble - but don't worry if people find they can gain some advantage by being social with you - well just be prepaired to throw your phone away - having to find a million and one excuses to say you just want to have a quiet night alone can be a pain when the locals become insistant!!!!

[stillnosheep]

[vikdk]

sorry dear friend - I really didn't mean to "karst" aspersions, so please dont get your (limestone) rocks in a tangle

[7969]

[SimonM]

The funny thing is that A: I do know every foreigner in Lishi (there is only six of us and although the russian "dancers" who work at the disco are completely vacuous and banal I still thought of it as good manners as the longest presently residing foreinger in town to meet them and welcome them to town) but I have no problems making friends with the staff. Now some of them are much more friendly than others. The dean of the department is a good guy, the assistant dean is also really fun while, on the other hand, there is an older woman who usually only talks to me if she has a grammar problem. However in general they are an outgoing and open bunch of people.

When I first came to Lishi the FAO said "it's dirty and small but the people are really friendly and honest". At first I thought this was just a sales pitch but having lived in China and having traveled both within and outside of Shanxi rather extensively I have to say that it's true. So if you want Chinese friends more than foreign ones you can always put an application over here. 5000 plus a free appartment if you are a native speaker with a BA; they pay for every utility except the phone.