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PAULH
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Posts: 4672
Location: Western Japan
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 Posted: Sun Apr 16, 2006 11:39 am Post subject: |
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| Keith, people learn languages all the time. there are fluent speakers of japanese here who are born in the US.. Some have written books in Japanese, then English. The Danish Crown princess is an Australian from tasmania who had to learn Danish from scratch. I know guys fluent in Chinese from the US. No one says learning languages is easy. Its all relative. My point simply is that with Japanese, Chinese etc you have to learn 2000 separate Kanji in order to read a newspaper. Japanese as a language is very easy to pronounce and intonate, compared to English. English is a bi-tch for students because of irregular spelling and odd grammar rules. Japanese grammar is very logical and ordered but the actual usage (respect language, honorifics etc) is a minefield for English speakers. Difficult is a relative term. |
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Keith_Alan_W
Joined: 26 Mar 2006
Posts: 121
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| Posted: Sun Apr 16, 2006 11:57 am Post subject: |
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| PAULH wrote: |
| Japanese as a language is very easy to pronounce and intonate, compared to English. English is a bi-tch for students because of irregular spelling and odd grammar rules. Japanese grammar is very logical and ordered but the actual usage (respect language, honorifics etc) is a minefield for English speakers. |
Ok paul. Kanji is hard, I tried to learn a couple thousand as well... tried anyway.
But this whole thing goes back to my post about my Experience in China and Germany. You said English is Romantic etc. etc. So you can't discount the troubles my 60 German children had...
GERMAN as a language is very easy to pronounce and intonate, compared to English. English is a bi-tch for students because of irregular spelling and odd grammar rules. GERMAN grammar is very logical and ordered but the actual usage is a minefield for English speakers.
PaulH
You are a very illogical person. Can you follow your logic? From rereading your posts, I fail to find any logic. Do you write speaches for the Bush adminestration in your spare time?
Last edited by Keith_Alan_W on Sun Apr 16, 2006 12:57 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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PAULH
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Posts: 4672
Location: Western Japan
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| Posted: Sun Apr 16, 2006 12:11 pm Post subject: |
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| Keith_Alan_W wrote: |
| GERMAN as a language is very easy to pronounce and intonate, compared to English. English is a bi-tch for students because of irregular spelling and odd grammar rules. GERMAN grammar is very logical and ordered but the actual usage is a minefield for English speakers. |
I have never actually studied german but i believe of the European languages (lets forget germanic and Romance and Slavic families for a minute) German grammar is supposed to be one of the most tricky. I believe you have masculine and feminine nouns. I found in German you have long words tacked onto each other so you might have a street name with 20 letters in it. (from my four days in Frankfurt). For me, it didnt really strike me as a language I want to spend a lot of time studying. Maybe it would be different if I lived there.
Another area I am interested in is affective factors i.e. how do Germans feel about non-native speaker foreigners e.g. muslims and Turks learning and speaking German? Do they welcome it? expect it? make fun of you if you speak it badly? what happens if you mangle grammar? |
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Keith_Alan_W
Joined: 26 Mar 2006
Posts: 121
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| Posted: Sun Apr 16, 2006 12:51 pm Post subject: |
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| PAULH wrote: |
Another area I am interested in is affective factors i.e. how do Germans feel about non-native speaker foreigners e.g. muslims and Turks learning and speaking German? Do they welcome it? expect it? make fun of you if you speak it badly? what happens if you mangle grammar? |
Germans expect that you will quickly learn their language. They find it to be of the most importance in regard to their identity and culture. if you do not speak German while living in Germany, many Germans take this as an insult. they tend to expect you to speak perfectly. During my first week in Germany, every person I met who spoke English(not as many as you might think as I lived in the East), would ask, "Why can't you speak German?" I'd say "Because I'm from Canada." They'd say, "Oh, well you will HAVE TO learn", or "You should have learned before you got here". Then they'd say, "Why didn't you learn?" To which I'd respond, "Because it's not useful outside of Germany and Austria." This would upset most people and then they'd stop speaking what little English they could and only speak German for the rest of the time they were with me. This pissed me off. After a week of being chastised by new aquaintences for not knowing their "wonderful language", I'd just respond to questions about my German ability with "I don't know it because your language is useless!" The worst was getting yelled at outside of bars and in the street for being an Auslander. Or having drunk young people telling me to "go back to my own country", or saying things like "I can speak YOUR language, so why can't you speak mine!!!!" To which I'd respond "Because your language is useless!!!" Fun stuff eh?
I don't think they make too much fun of people who make mistakes. The reason being is that, unlike Japan and Japanese, Germans and their language are low on context. This translates into the language being very direct and the role of context having little or no value. After living in Japan, you might be thinking "Great!," but hold onto that excitement. Since context is meaningless, Germans cannot understand you if you make mistakes in grammar or pronunciation. for example, when I first arrived in Germany, I was starting to learn a little of the language, one phrase was "Ein aschenbeche (ashtray) bitte". (My German is weak, so don't copy my spelling). Anyway, at the bar I forgot the word "beche," and said becha instead. the waitress looked at me as if I had horns growing out of my head. I proceeded to show her my cigarette and made a cup of my hands like an ashtray. she still didn't get it. Finally I got up and grabbed one from the counter... then he got it. See, context meant absolutely nothing. (The same hand cupping works great here though).
Germans not only cannot understand you if you make a pronunciation error, they also can't understand you if you make a grammatical error. For example, saying "Eina" (the one) instead of "Ein" (one). Say "Eina beer bitte" and you get the look as if you have horns again.
I think the hardest time I had was students who wanted to explain German grammar to me (they just adore grammar, in Germany) every time I corrected a mistake they made in English.
Culturally, EVERYTHING must be put into print, so rules rules and more rules. If there is no written formulae for how something should be done, Germans CAN'T do it. They also like to enforce rules a lot. In the German psyche, the outside world is Chaos, and the only place on the planet with order is within Germany and the Eastern Reich (Austria). |
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Keith_Alan_W
Joined: 26 Mar 2006
Posts: 121
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| Posted: Sun Apr 16, 2006 1:11 pm Post subject: |
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Also, on the topic of Germany.
Many of things that make one polite in English (I.e., small talk, indirect speah "Could you, Would you, It'd be nice...etc.) are rude to Germans. If you go up to a German and comment on the weather, they will assume you don't like them since you are waisting their time with uch "foo foo" talk. Things that make Germans polite, i.e. getting directly to the point, are very rude in the English world. Requesting statements in German are commands in English.
I did a workshop for Novell in Nuremburg where the key problem between the Germans and Their American counterparts was email language.
The American would write:
"How's it going Wolfgang? We're moving ahead with the new soｆtware release here in North America. So farwe've completed x, y, z, and I'm very hopeful the project will be finished soon. I can't wait to move on to the next ..... yabayabayabayabayaba.... It would be good if we could get together on the conference phone to discuss the final details of distribution2. When you get the chance, please send me an email saying when we can arrange our time on the televideo machine.
Best regards
Bob"
For the same situation a German would write:
"Bob, I need to discuss x, y, z for distribution2. Send me an email stating the time you're available for conferencing immediatiatly. This is urgent.
Wolfgang"
Can you see the problems that could arise here? Both think they are being polite, but both are pissing the other off.
Now, i came to Japan to get a handle on the high-context culture here. I imagine that Japanese experience a great deal of difficulty dealing with Gaijin companies. I was hoping to help.
Last edited by Keith_Alan_W on Sun Apr 16, 2006 1:26 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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PAULH
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Posts: 4672
Location: Western Japan
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| Posted: Sun Apr 16, 2006 1:16 pm Post subject: |
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| Keith_Alan_W wrote: |
| ANow, i came to Japan to get a handle on the high-context culture here. I imagine that Japanese experience a great deal of difficulty dealing with Gaijin companies. I was hoping to help. |
If you want to learn how NOT to do things here, see the movie Gung Ho with Michael Keaton. Black Rain with Michael Douglas is a good lesson on American cultural superiority as well.
Understanding the locals here is an inexact science and for many of us here it takes years. Taikibansei and i are both university veterans and speak the language and have got the hang of it I think but you wont learn it overnight unless you also speak the language.
You cant pretend to fly in, tell them in English how they should behave and think without understanding what makes them tick, and if you dont speak Japanese, its a major handicap. Those who dont come with a western cultural perspective that the locals here have to be 'educated' without understanding where they are coming from in their own culture and dealings with westerners. |
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Keith_Alan_W
Joined: 26 Mar 2006
Posts: 121
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| Posted: Sun Apr 16, 2006 1:28 pm Post subject: |
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| I NEVER planned to fly in here and tell them anything. i planned to come here and LEARN, and then TEACH. |
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abufletcher
Joined: 14 Sep 2005
Posts: 779
Location: Shikoku Japan (for now)
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| Posted: Sun Apr 16, 2006 2:52 pm Post subject: |
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While traveling in exotic places like Yemen and Guatemala I have tended to run into lots and lots of Germans...and they have generally been more interesting people to hang out with than the English speakers I meet in these places. Anyway as the result of years and years of German as a foreign language classes and a year at a German university (Georg-August in Goettingen) -- and a year working at a German deli in the US, I speak pretty passable German and so I end up speaking German with the Germans I meet. Anyway I remember speaking German as I walked into the room full of other Germans and hearing one college aged woman exclaim:
"Ach, Mensch! Ein Ami der Deutsch kann! Das is aber was!" |
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David W
Joined: 17 Jan 2003
Posts: 457
Location: Japan
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| Posted: Sun Apr 16, 2006 3:18 pm Post subject: |
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| abufletcher wrote: |
My recommendation for parents wanting not just a "bilingual child" but a child that will be capable of successful entry into a school system "back home" is to plan on provided EXTENSIVE home schooling! Just making sure you're kids read in English isn't enough. They have to STUDY in English. |
I'm finding that with my boys (7 and 5). It's not enough to just get them reading but you need to incorporate writing, spelling, dictation etc. Ultimately, as you said, teaching them (science, maths, social studies etc)in English is what I need to do. Fortunately, in this, the internet is your friend these days as there are plenty of access to resources. |
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kdynamic
Joined: 05 Nov 2005
Posts: 562
Location: Japan
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| Posted: Mon Apr 17, 2006 12:10 am Post subject: |
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| Keith_Alan_W wrote: |
| I NEVER planned to fly in here and tell them anything. i planned to come here and LEARN, and then TEACH. |
BWAHAHAHAHAHAAH Keith you crack me up. Please don't stop posting. You are very entertaining! Hahaha you? Learn?? You are the least receptive person to any kind of learning I have ever seen on these forums! I am looking forward to watching Japan chew you up and spit you out. Please keep us posted. |
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abufletcher
Joined: 14 Sep 2005
Posts: 779
Location: Shikoku Japan (for now)
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| Posted: Mon Apr 17, 2006 1:51 am Post subject: |
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| Keith_Alan_W wrote: |
| Germans and their language are low on context. This translates into the language being very direct and the role of context having little or no value. |
This is complete and utter rubbish! I have lived in half a dozen countries (including Germany) and traveled in three dozen more and I have yet to find any human society where context was not inexorably interwoven in the process of meaning making. |
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Sweetsee
Joined: 11 Jun 2004
Posts: 2302
Location: ) is everything
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| Posted: Mon Apr 17, 2006 2:03 am Post subject: |
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| Maybe telephone lines were not what they are today but as a child I remember my father speaking with his parents in Germany on the phone and it always seemed like they were hollering at each other, seemed they were fightingor angered. It is a wonderful language to listen to. That and I never met a German who couldn't speak English well. |
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Sweetsee
Joined: 11 Jun 2004
Posts: 2302
Location: ) is everything
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| Posted: Mon Apr 17, 2006 2:06 am Post subject: |
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double-trouble 
Last edited by Sweetsee on Mon Apr 17, 2006 2:30 am; edited 1 time in total |
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shuize
Joined: 04 Sep 2004
Posts: 1270
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| Posted: Mon Apr 17, 2006 2:18 am Post subject: |
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| Now, i came to Japan to get a handle on the high-context culture here. I imagine that Japanese experience a great deal of difficulty dealing with Gaijin companies. I was hoping to help. |
Hey Keith, after reading this post I had a vision which I'm sort of having trouble putting into words. Do you think you could help? I know that's your thing.
It involves you strolling in to a Japanese company after a mere month or two in Japan and telling the executives, many of whom already possess American MBAs, exactly what they're doing wrong. Then the Japanese guys all slap their foreheads and exclaim, (in English, of course, since you've already pointed out how their language is useless) "Ah, how could we be so stupid! It's all about the ashtrays!"
Oh, wait. Maybe I don't need your help after all.
Last edited by shuize on Mon Apr 17, 2006 2:19 am; edited 1 time in total |
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nomadder
Joined: 15 Feb 2003
Posts: 709
Location: Somewherebetweenhereandthere
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| Posted: Mon Apr 17, 2006 2:18 am Post subject: |
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On a scale of 1-4, German is a 2 and Japanese a 4 in difficulty. Ah love those 1's-Latin Languages mainly though perhaps includes Scandinavian-don't have the chart handy.
Well besides being WW2 villians, Germany and Japan don't have much in common except strangely they both say ah so.
It's like thinking China and England are similar. Spose they both like tea. |
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