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william wallace
Joined: 14 May 2003
Posts: 2869
Location: in between
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 Posted: Sun Apr 16, 2006 5:54 am Post subject: Dear englishgibson... |
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nil
Last edited by william wallace on Fri Nov 23, 2007 5:01 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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englishgibson
Joined: 09 Mar 2005
Posts: 4345
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| Posted: Sun Apr 16, 2006 7:17 am Post subject: IELTS exams in China |
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William, I see that you have quite some IELTS experience under your belt.
I understand that IELTS examiners are only messengers. Would you say that students with unsuccessful exam attempts tend to complain more often? I'd be interested to know about differences in between IELTS exams in other countries and China.
Now, what I've learned recently is that many Universities offer English language programs for their foreign applicants prior to their courses. Those language programs offer a sort of certificate of language proficiency, but I don't know what kind. So, this might be a way around for those desperate for business western Universities to sign foreign students and help them get their much needed Student Visas to travel. It also might be a "slap in the face" to such institutions as IELTS or TOEFL running around the world.
Peace to us
And
Cheers and beers |
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Joe C.
Joined: 08 May 2003
Posts: 993
Location: Witness Protection Program
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| Posted: Sun Apr 16, 2006 7:51 am Post subject: Re: IELTS exams in China |
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| englishgibson wrote: |
| It�s obvious that you want to be a smart a*s here on the forum. ... yadda ... yadda ... With regards to IELTS, we shall provide some kind of expectations for the students, shan�t we? |
As opposed to the clueless ... thank you.
The only expectation candidates should have is that they will get an impartial evaluation of their language skills. Maybe you and the rest of the Chinese have seen one too many Hollywood films and assume that shaking hands is a ritual whever we meet someone we have never met and likely will never see again in the future. I have seen countless videos of actual interviews conducted on the Mainland and not once have I seen an examiner who has not been friendly in their own right. It's a far jump to corelate not shaking hands with being cold and unfriendly.
| englishgibson wrote: |
| No offence mate, but I wish you stopped shaking your �tale� here. I am not an IELTS examiner and I have to go with what I gather from sites, teachers, books or students that have done one or two exams already. The more informed I am and the more standardized the IELTS are, the better I can prepare my students. Having said that, I don�t teach them how to recite phrases or any given questions, so don�t get any ideas there to shake your "tale" either. |
Let's make a deal. I'll stoop down to your level, but you try to increase the number of brain cells you have functioning at any one particular time.
| Quote: |
Joe C. wrote:
If anything, universities are not clamoring for more lenient marking on IELTS but rather for more stringent marking.
Englishgibson replied:
I'd like to believe that. |
Some things are true whether you believe them or not, but I doubt, in any event, anybody cares about what you'd like to believe. With the wealth [not] of experience you have with the real IELTS exam, it's no surprise you don't see the obvious.
| englishgibson wrote: |
Who are you kidding? The more students that apply the higher the tuition fees can go. Education's becoming business everywhere, especially in those not so well known Universities.
Then, it is quite well known that some Chinese families are rich, and some quite desperate to get their kids a fine education. It is also quite known that Chinese Universities are not only becoming quite expensive themselves, but also are quite tough to get in. |
See, your problem is that you only have experience in Chinese universities so that is why you fail to grasp even the most fundamental concepts of Western education. I know it may be difficult for you to make the quantum leap from thinking about your own experience studying in China to what actually transpires in, say, North American universities, but the fact remains that Chinese students in the USA tend to be the cream of the crop and, as such, obtain scholarships, fellowships or other types of merit-based financial aid. At a minimum they are allowed to pay in-state tuition. So please muster all of your skills in economics and supply and demand driven economies and explain how Chinese students practically studying for free in North American universities are driving up tuition expenses.
Or better yet, please explain why tuition and fees at North American universities rise in percentages totally unrelated to the percentage of foreign students both in schools that have foreign students enrolled and those schools which have none at all.
As for UK universities, statistics show that, if anything, foreign students subsidize local students who pay lower tuition. If anything, expenses in UK institutions of higher education rise much less than they otherwise should because of the increased cash flow from overseas students.
China, on the other hand, increases tuition because for the past 50 years people never paid the real cost of their education (irregardless of the quality of that education) as it was subsidized by the government. Now that the government can no longer afford to provide an iron ricebowl, costs, including those related to education, must rise. There's also that pesky little issue of too few schools and too many people, in case you haven't realized.
| englishgibson wrote: |
| Yeah right! First of all, ..................... being ridged or unfriendly isn�t a part of their/your job, is it? How can you find out about one�s true knowledge of the language, if you and your communication goes totally �unsocial�? From the way you are replying to my posts, it looks like you are low in that department, mate. Respectfully, you are a hostile kinda fellow. Maybe they should build a bulletproof window in between you and your student at the IELTS exam. |
It's unfortunate that you believe IELTS is or ought to be a "social" exam. The exam is designed to measure the chances of a candidate being able to survive in an academic environment and not, if you'd care to investigate further, whether they can socially adapt or further establish social relationships. To that end, and considering that there are a seemingly unlimited number of candidates and an extremely finite amount of time, the exam must be pretty sterile. Again, examiners are not rude or condescending, but then they are not your best friend either. There is a big difference between empathy and sympathy. For sympathy please call your mother.
| englishgibson wrote: |
Now, the IELTS and TOEFL might be quite head to head competitors and it seems that US Universities do take that TOEFL much more seriously. I�ve just read quite an interesting article on Chinese students preparing to study abroad and here below is the link to it http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20060414/wr_nm/column_pluggedin_dc_1
I�d say that there are scores of Chinese looking for that western education and making their plans. It�s a tremendous future business for many western Universities. |
TOEFL and IELTS, more often than not, cater to two distinctly different market segments though there can always be some minor overlap. As we all know, IELTS caters to those studying generally in Europe -- most specifically in the UK -- as well as Australia and New Zealand. There is also a certain immigration segment amongst IELTS candidates due to the often relatively lax immigration policies in target nations. TOEFL, as we all know, caters to the US market. As a result, I don't see how one can state the two are "head to head competitors." |
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Joe C.
Joined: 08 May 2003
Posts: 993
Location: Witness Protection Program
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| Posted: Sun Apr 16, 2006 8:16 am Post subject: Re: IELTS exams in China |
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| englishgibson wrote: |
| Now, what I've learned recently is that many Universities offer English language programs for their foreign applicants prior to their courses. Those language programs offer a sort of certificate of language proficiency, but I don't know what kind. So, this might be a way around for those desperate for business western Universities to sign foreign students and help them get their much needed Student Visas to travel. It also might be a "slap in the face" to such institutions as IELTS or TOEFL running around the world. |
These courses that you mentioned are designed for those who cannot get the required score on IELTS and need a chance to improve their English level before attempting IELTS again. Of course, these courses are also designed to suck a few thousand more quid from the prospective student's wallet. 
After completion, students are usually required to resit the IELTS.
As a result, more than a slap in the face it is really quite the opposite for IELTS. Since North American universities rarely, if ever, use this kind of scheme, I don't see why you mention TEOFL. |
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william wallace
Joined: 14 May 2003
Posts: 2869
Location: in between
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| Posted: Sun Apr 16, 2006 1:47 pm Post subject: Dear JoeC and Englishgibson... |
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nil
Last edited by william wallace on Fri Nov 23, 2007 5:18 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Joe C.
Joined: 08 May 2003
Posts: 993
Location: Witness Protection Program
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| Posted: Sun Apr 16, 2006 3:49 pm Post subject: Re: Dear JoeC and Englishgibson... |
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| william wallace wrote: |
With all due respect, and I DO mean that; don't get so personal in the attacking, it's only a bloody language test, not human rights...eh ? You both certainly are taking counter persuassive tactics.  |
I agree with you. I will try my best to be more patient, but don't expect miracles this week -- maybe next.
| william wallace wrote: |
| Joe: You wouldn't by chance be the former IELTS Examiner from Ireland who lived up in Dalian(?) |
Should you cancel the word "former" and substitute Canada for Ireland, I'd say you had ESP.
I think statistically mainland China is averaging 5 whereas Hong Kong is at 6 or even slightly higher. I would imagine the Philippines must be quite higher since English is one of their official languages, no? |
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englishgibson
Joined: 09 Mar 2005
Posts: 4345
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| Posted: Mon Apr 17, 2006 6:07 am Post subject: IELTS exams in China |
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William thanx for sharing your experiences and trying to keep this discussion as civilized as it can be. A good mediator you might be.
| Quote: |
englishgibson wrote:
Now, the IELTS and TOEFL might be quite head to head competitors and it seems that US Universities do take that TOEFL much more seriously. I’ve just read quite an interesting article on Chinese students preparing to study abroad and here below is the link to it http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20060414/wr_nm/column_pluggedin_dc_1
I’d say that there are scores of Chinese looking for that western education and making their plans. It’s a tremendous future business for many western Universities.
Joe C replied:
TOEFL and IELTS, more often than not, cater to two distinctly different market segments though there can always be some minor overlap. As we all know, IELTS caters to those studying generally in Europe -- most specifically in the UK -- as well as Australia and New Zealand. There is also a certain immigration segment amongst IELTS candidates due to the often relatively lax immigration policies in target nations. TOEFL, as we all know, caters to the US market. As a result, I don't see how one can state the two are "head to head competitors." |
Both are recently used and are acceptable for the purpose of immigration to US or Canada besides other English speaking countries and that might not be just "some minor overlap".
Then, of course we do not know what the future will be, though I've just raised an issue of the future possibilities in those two markets of both.
| Quote: |
englishgibson wrote:
Now, what I've learned recently is that many Universities offer English language programs for their foreign applicants prior to their courses. Those language programs offer a sort of certificate of language proficiency, but I don't know what kind. So, this might be a way around for those desperate for business western Universities to sign foreign students and help them get their much needed Student Visas to travel. It also might be a "slap in the face" to such institutions as IELTS or TOEFL running around the world.
Joe C replied:
These courses that you mentioned are designed for those who cannot get the required score on IELTS and need a chance to improve their English level before attempting IELTS again. Of course, these courses are also designed to suck a few thousand more quid from the prospective student's wallet.
After completion, students are usually required to resit the IELTS.
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More and more foreign students avoid IELTS due to the Universities language prep courses. Universities are getting their rights to sign their students into their courses (not language) and based on their "language sponsorship" the students' Student Visas are issued more often than before.
| Quote: |
englishgibson wrote:
Yeah right! First of all, ..................... being ridged or unfriendly isn’t a part of their/your job, is it? How can you find out about one’s true knowledge of the language, if you and your communication goes totally “unsocial”? From the way you are replying to my posts, it looks like you are low in that department, mate. Respectfully, you are a hostile kinda fellow. Maybe they should build a bulletproof window in between you and your student at the IELTS exam.
Joe C replied:
It's unfortunate that you believe IELTS is or ought to be a "social" exam. The exam is designed to measure the chances of a candidate being able to survive in an academic environment and not, if you'd care to investigate further, whether they can socially adapt or further establish social relationships. To that end, and considering that there are a seemingly unlimited number of candidates and an extremely finite amount of time, the exam must be pretty sterile. Again, examiners are not rude or condescending, but then they are not your best friend either. There is a big difference between empathy and sympathy. For sympathy please call your mother. |
Well, calling my mother would not be helpful there and I bet it might not be helpful in many cases in China, but socially inclined academics judging the ones who just wish to immigrate might be more of a help. "Not rude or condescending" they and YOU might be and I'll stop right there.
In any case, I raised issues of differences or inconsistancies in IELTS in between last year and this year, not "A HELL IN BETWEEN TWO FORUM MEMBERS".
Not wishing to poke in a sh*t here or take any counter persuasive tactics, but from a concern of IELTS tendency in China one turns this forum into a rather hostile discussion with wordings such as the ones below…
| Quote: |
| [b]See, your problem is [/b]that you only have experience in Chinese universities so that is why you fail to grasp even the most fundamental concepts of Western education. I know it may be difficult for you to make the quantum leap from thinking about your own experience studying in China to what actually transpires in, say, North American universities,... |
I've graduated from North American universities. I am a Canadian and I know very well the North York University of Toronto, Waterloo University in KW, Phoenix University in Arizona, and so on and on. Further more, I happen to know European Universities as well.
See, your problem is that you sometimes assume, but I guess you're better with your students.
| Quote: |
Quote:
Joe C. wrote:
If anything, universities are not clamoring for more lenient marking on IELTS but rather for more stringent marking.
Englishgibson replied:
I'd like to believe that.
Joe C replied
Some things are true whether you believe them or not, but I doubt, in any event, anybody cares about what you'd like to believe. |
Hmmm... 
| Quote: |
| Let's make a deal. I'll stoop down to your level, but you try to increase the number of brain cells |
I am working on it, but it's kinda hard to raise it so high to your level.
Body, I am sorry for your students if you have any. You should be ashamed in an academic position in China if you are, and with that kinda personality that you’ve displayed here above ……………(no need to say more)
Peace to all
And
Cheers and beers |
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Joe C.
Joined: 08 May 2003
Posts: 993
Location: Witness Protection Program
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| Posted: Mon Apr 17, 2006 8:50 am Post subject: Re: IELTS exams in China |
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First of all, William, I am sorry. I tried, but in the face of overwhelming stupidity I just can't.
| englishgibson wrote: |
| Both are recently used and are acceptable for the purpose of immigration to US or Canada besides other English speaking countries and that might not be just "some minor overlap". |
Huh??? There is no test for those who wish to immigrate to the USA. In fact, there is practically no immigration to USA at all. Also, Canadian Immigration orders all potential immigrants to take the IELTS and not TOEFL. Anybody who has a) been outside of China and b) has an IQ at least two points above plant life knows this.
| englishgibson wrote: |
| More and more foreign students avoid IELTS due to the Universities language prep courses. Universities are getting their rights to sign their students into their courses (not language) and based on their "language sponsorship" the students' Student Visas are issued more often than before. |
Not true. Do you really believe this drivel or are you trying to impress us with lies because of your failure to understand the truth? This does not happen in Canada. It does not happen in America. It does not happen in the UK unless one has previously failed IELTS and then after taking the language courses offered by the university one must resit IELTS.
| englishgibson wrote: |
| In any case, I raised issues of differences or inconsistancies in IELTS in between last year and this year, not "A HELL IN BETWEEN TWO FORUM MEMBERS". |
You didn't raise issues. You only raised your uneducated and irrational views of what you think is happening from your extremely limited perspective. Think of it as being an armchair quarterback after having watched your first game ever.
| englishgibson wrote: |
| I've graduated from North American universities. I am a Canadian and I know very well the North York University of Toronto, Waterloo University in KW, Phoenix University in Arizona, and so on and on. Further more, I happen to know European Universities as well. |
From a picture book. If you are a native Canadian (as opposed to a recent Chinese immigrant to Canada  ) and "know" all the institutions mentioned, you should retain a lawyer and sue them all for having failed miserably to educate you. From what you write, your ideas and how you express them, you are definitely not a native speaker. And there is no such thing as Phoenix University, dimwhit. It's called University of Phoenix.
| englishgibson wrote: |
| I am working on it, but it's kinda hard to raise it so high to your level. |
This, of course, is about the only intelligent and accurate thing you've written. Thank you.
Now, crawl back into your hole, learn a bit more English and eat plenty of fish to increase the brain cell count before you honor us with more drivel. |
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englishgibson
Joined: 09 Mar 2005
Posts: 4345
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| Posted: Mon Apr 17, 2006 9:52 am Post subject: IELTS exams in China |
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Last edited by englishgibson on Mon Apr 17, 2006 9:54 am; edited 1 time in total |
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englishgibson
Joined: 09 Mar 2005
Posts: 4345
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| Posted: Mon Apr 17, 2006 9:53 am Post subject: IELTS exams in China |
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Who's "us" to you? Overweight? Eaten too much red meat?
You must be the crankiest, most self centered and arrogant individual on these forums and I’ve read a share of stuff on. Never mind the topic I have originally posted anymore. I’ve got an idea now, what kinds of individuals might be involved in IELTS exams in China. Better warn my students or maybe even disencourage them from meeting such “monsters” at IELTS exams. Hell, I am sorry for those great IELTS people there that’ve been nice and working hard in China or around the world.
Peace to all
And
Cheers and beers
____________________________________________________________
Does a high or low IQ increase arrogance? |
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Joe C.
Joined: 08 May 2003
Posts: 993
Location: Witness Protection Program
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| Posted: Mon Apr 17, 2006 12:28 pm Post subject: Re: IELTS exams in China |
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| englishgibson wrote: |
Who's "us" to you? Overweight? Eaten too much red meat?
You must be the crankiest, most self centered and arrogant individual on these forums and I�ve read a share of stuff on. Never mind the topic I have originally posted anymore. I�ve got an idea now, what kinds of individuals might be involved in IELTS exams in China. Better warn my students or maybe even disencourage them from meeting such �monsters� at IELTS exams. Hell, I am sorry for those great IELTS people there that�ve been nice and working hard in China or around the world.
Does a high or low IQ increase arrogance? |
Arrogance comes from a person with a comparatively high IQ meeting a person with an infinitely rock-bottom IQ who likes to pass himself off as an expert in something he hasn't a clue about.
Yes, warn your students. Tell them they had best hope I am not their examiner or that I am not the supervisor of their examiner. Better yet, tell them to stay in China and not to bless us with their presence if their IQ and attitude is the same as yours. |
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mondrian
Joined: 20 Mar 2005
Posts: 658
Location: "was that beautiful coastal city in the NE of China"
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| Posted: Mon Apr 17, 2006 11:15 pm Post subject: Re: IELTS exams in China |
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| englishgibson wrote: |
| I understand that IELTS examiners are only messengers. Would you say that students with unsuccessful exam attempts tend to complain more often? |
NO student with a successful exam score is going to complain!!
Of all the students who do complain only about 5% get their grade upgraded |
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englishgibson
Joined: 09 Mar 2005
Posts: 4345
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| Posted: Tue Apr 18, 2006 3:37 am Post subject: IELTS exams in China |
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Yes Mondrian. That's what I thought.
Then, you have to find a really good reason to "upgrade" those "unfortunate" ones scores, don'cha?
In my academic management experience it's always been difficult to deal with student complaints. If you sell a hotel room to a customer who's dissatisfied due to a poor customer service there, you surely can make a good judgement and adjust his/her final hotel bill. However, in academic world judging a teachers' vs students' academic performance is much more difficult, in my opinion.
I understand that Chinese students of English and IELTS are tough to deal with. IELTS exams aren't the place to change the students minds/thinking.
It's a job of the teachers prior to the students' IELTS exams. But believe me that that job is as tough as it ever can get. It comes with the way they think and with the knowledge they receive in their respective public schools. They often lack the knowledge of their own country and geography (they do often not know their own provinces) as well as they lack any knowledge of the world and countries around. Further more, they have a really difficult time contributing to questions that require their opinion, but hell you all know that, don'cha?
Yes, if they cannot deal with IELTS exams, they should stay home.
I've brought IELTS up here due to some of my students higher than usual scores at their respective exams in 2006 suspecting some changes there.
I can relate to IELTS exam "secrets" and to its procedures, however there've been some official steps for speaking as William's pointed out here before. That should be followed in my opinion, shouldn't it?
Peace to all
And
Cheers and beers |
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Joe C.
Joined: 08 May 2003
Posts: 993
Location: Witness Protection Program
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| Posted: Tue Apr 18, 2006 8:51 am Post subject: Re: IELTS exams in China |
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| mondrian wrote: |
| englishgibson wrote: |
| I understand that IELTS examiners are only messengers. Would you say that students with unsuccessful exam attempts tend to complain more often? |
NO student with a successful exam score is going to complain!!
Of all the students who do complain only about 5% get their grade upgraded |
Actually, it's less than 5% -- far less.
As for successful students complaining (nquiry on results or otherwise), at times some of the IELTS preparation mills wil advise and often pay for all to complain as a way of intimidating, supposedly, examiners. It used to work in Beijing several years ago, but now the BC is wary and has taken measures to eliminate this -- one way was by raising the inquiry on results fees. |
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