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Do you ever try to take on other vocabulary?
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Stephen Jones



Joined: 21 Feb 2003
Posts: 4124

PostPosted: Tue Apr 18, 2006 6:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Zounds. A coordinating conjunction and a subordinating conjunction as part of the same dependent clause.
Gadzooks, a senior technical writer who thinks you can have a coordinating conjunction with only one clause to coordinate.

No, Henry dear, it takes two to tango and a couple to coordinate. Your 'But' has been cut-off from the clause it should join by that big ugly full stop. What to call 'But' here is open to discussion; it is exactly the same in function and meaning as 'however' and thus some would call it a connective adverb, some a conjunct. What nobody out of grade school would do however, is call it a conjunction.


Last edited by Stephen Jones on Wed Apr 19, 2006 4:06 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Henry_Cowell



Joined: 27 May 2005
Posts: 3352
Location: Berkeley

PostPosted: Tue Apr 18, 2006 11:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Stephen Jones wrote:
Your 'But' has been cut-off by from any clause to join by that big ugly full stop.

Huh?
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Justin Trullinger



Joined: 28 Jan 2005
Posts: 3110
Location: Seoul, South Korea and Myanmar for a bit

PostPosted: Wed Apr 19, 2006 12:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Erm, your "but" has been cut off?


Has anybody ever read "Candide," by Voltaire?


If you have, that sentence sounded really funny. But I may be laughing alone...and in any case, it's time to go home...

Justin
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Henry_Cowell



Joined: 27 May 2005
Posts: 3352
Location: Berkeley

PostPosted: Wed Apr 19, 2006 3:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

No, Justin...

SJ said that my but had been cut-off by from .....

You need to include all the prepositions before the sentence can really shine! Wink
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Gajeman



Joined: 05 Oct 2005
Posts: 10
Location: Taguatinga Norte, Brasil

PostPosted: Wed Apr 19, 2006 6:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Comma, comma, comma, comma, comma chameleon... it comes and goes. It comes and go-oh-oh-oes.
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Stephen Jones



Joined: 21 Feb 2003
Posts: 4124

PostPosted: Wed Apr 19, 2006 4:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The typo has been duly edited. Now, perhaps HC could let us know whether he really thinks you can begin a sentence with a coordinating conjunction.
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Henry_Cowell



Joined: 27 May 2005
Posts: 3352
Location: Berkeley

PostPosted: Wed Apr 19, 2006 5:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Of course you can. Your third-grade teacher probably warned you not to begin sentences with coordinating conjunctions. But you've learned some linguistics since then, haven't you? Coordinating conjuctions frequently join sentences across "full stops" in the best writing by the best authors. Wink

http://dictionary.reference.com/help/faq/language/g49.html

Can I use and (or but, etc.) at the start of a sentence?
Yes. The old "rule" that you cannot begin a sentence with a conjunction has actually gone by the wayside. In casual writing or speech, a sentence can start with and or but. Though these words are mainly used to join elements within a sentence, they have been used to start sentences since the 10th century. Many style guides even say that but is more effective than however at the beginning of a sentence. But, in any case, do use variety in the way you start sentences and try to start consecutive sentences with different words. The groundless suggestion that it is incorrect to begin a sentence with but or and is as silly as saying it is incorrect to end a sentence with a preposition.

By the way, Stephen, but, and, and or are coordinating conjunctions. They can begin sentences. But they are NOT to be confused with (or used as) conjunctive adverbs. The word but can indeed be an adverb -- but not a conjunctive adverb. Check your dictionary, kind sir.

but (adv.) 'merely' 'only' "He is but a child."
but (adv.) 'to the contrary' "Who knows but that she may succeed."
but (adv.) used as an intensive "Get there but fast."

Conjunctive adverbs (note absence of but)
accordingly
also
anyhow
besides
consequently
for example
furthermore
hence
henceforth
however
in addition
indeed
in fact
instead
likewise
meanwhile
moreover
namely
nevertheless
notwithstanding
otherwise
similarly
so
still
then
thereby
therefore
thus
yet


Last edited by Henry_Cowell on Thu Apr 20, 2006 12:58 am; edited 1 time in total
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Henry_Cowell



Joined: 27 May 2005
Posts: 3352
Location: Berkeley

PostPosted: Wed Apr 19, 2006 5:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

And the following goes directly to my original point about SJ's original sentence. His incorrectly punctuated sentence was the following:
Stephen Jones, M.A., wrote:
But where the syntatical [sic] boundaries don't coincide with a pause, they don't coincide with a comma.

http://andromeda.rutgers.edu/~jlynch/Writing/b.html

Contrary to what your high school English teacher told you, there's no reason not to begin a sentence with but or and; in fact, these words often make a sentence more forceful and graceful. They are almost always better than beginning with however or additionally. Beginning with but or and does make your writing less formal; but worse things could happen to most writing than becoming less formal.

Note, though, that if you open with but or and, you usually don't need a comma: not "But, we did it anyway"; it's enough to say "But we did it anyway." The only time you need a comma after a sentence-opening conjunction is when you want to sneak a clause right between the conjunction and the rest of the sentence: "But, as you know, we did it anyway."


In other words, the coordinating conjunction but and the subordinating conjunction as are in different clauses and thus must be separated by a comma. The subordinate clause is an interruption and must be set off from the rest of the sentence.

So SJ's original sentence should have had the extra comma:

But , where the syntactical boundaries don't coincide with a pause, they don't coincide with a comma.
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