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JimDunlop2 · Joined: 31 Jan 2003 Posts: 2286 Location: Japan

Here's something that's been on my mind for a while. Maybe I am showing my lack of understanding in how the public school system works in this country, but almost on a weekly basis I am left awed and somewhat amazed at what I would THINK would be general knowledge about one's own country, but obviously doesn't seem to be the case. Is it important? I dunno... But lets just say that it makes teaching a little awkward sometimes when you expect your students to have a certain understanding about the world around them.

For example, when I was in jr high school many moons ago (I'm 28 now) here's just a sample of what I had to know for my grade 7 and 8 social studies classes: the names of the capital cities of all the provinces (I'm Canadian), the names of all the Premiers, their political party, the names of all 50 U.S. states, their captital cities, along with their approximate location on a state map... That's just a quick smattering from a geography class.

I may be wrong in my postulations, but the students that I base my opinions on aren't exactly dummies. They are public high-school students who come to the Eikawa where I work to get additional help with their communicative English; seem to do well in class, and speak English better-than-average....

What are everyone's experiences with this? Agree? Disagree?

Part 2 of my post.... Here's a list of questions that I've asked my students at some point or other during class. Some of them may seem quite silly (and you may ask yourself: why would this guy ever ask this)... But nenvertheless, they've ALL come up in my discussion classes at some point...

See how many you know without looking up. How many of these would you expect an average first year Japanese high school student (~grade 10) to know? Because as I said before, my high school group knew NONE of these. English comprehension was not a problem in any of these cases.

(in no particular order, except maybe recency in which I asked them):

(BTW.... the questions that I DIDN'T know the answers to before looking them up were: #2 & #4)

1. How many prefectures does Japan have?
2. What is the population of Japan?
3. What is the population of <your city>? (some knew)
4. What is the population of Tokyo?
5. What are the capital cities of the following countries: U.S.A.; U.K. (some actually DID know these ones); Canada; Australia, New Zealand? (All major English-speaking countries, right?)
6. How many states does the United States have? (Actually, I've met some Americans that don't know this one either, so maybe it isn't a fair question)....
7. What is one of the official languages of South Africa?
8. Who is Nelson Mandella?
9. When was the Edo Period? (When did it begin/end?)
10. When did the Tokugawa shogunate begin/end?
11. Who is credited with ending the Warring States period?
12. Who was William Adams
13. Who was Commodore Perry?
14. When did Japan open its doors to foreigners?
15. When did the French Revolution begin?
16. When did Napoleon Bonaparte live?
17. Who was Vladimir Lenin?
18. Where do polar bears live?
19. Name one Japanese newspaper that publishes in English
20. What was the relationship between the U.S.A. and Japan prior to 1945?

There are others as well... In addition, as a last comment, I also teach a number of adult classes, consisting of people from many walks of life. From housewives to salarymen to those in the various medical and educational fields. Of all those I've asked (because I LOVE the arts) not one of them has ever been to a theatre play (except the one time they were forced to watch a kabuki drama through school).... Only two of them have ever seen a Shakespeare play in any form (written, movie, theatre) and that was the most recent Hollywood adaptation of Romeo & Juliet... Not a single one of them has read a book (other than Harry Potter or pop fiction) in the past year...

Am I asking too much? Is this a reflection on the average Japanese, or am I completely out to lunch? If I am, I'd like to know how.... Smile

Gordon · Joined: 28 Jan 2003 Posts: 5309 Location: Japan

Hi Jim,
Sorry to say I am not that surprised. I understand they don't know about N.A., many Europeans don't either and how much do N.Americans know about Japan? Of course they should know most of the Q's, but if they are not on a test, then they would probably not know the answers.
My university students don't have a clue about many things outside of Japan. I too am curious what h.s. students are taught about the int'l world.

Glenski · Joined: 15 Jan 2003 Posts: 12844 Location: Hokkaido, JAPAN

Japanese high schools teach so much ancient history about Japan, that they claim they don't have time to teach recent history, including events roughly before WWII.

nomadder · Posted: Sat Sep 06, 2003 12:55 am Post subject:

In Canada I never learned 20th century history as we always ran out of time. I don't know all the answers to your questions or I did and now I forget. Rote learning doesn't work. They have a long history to study and lots of kanji. History goes in one ear and out the other tho 1066 the Battle of Hastings sticks for some bizarre reason. They're always tired end should shower in the morning instead of bathe at night. These answers and others could answer your questions. And right no one likes to look like a know-it- all-the nail that sticks up is hammered down or however it goes. Maybe they don't give a ****>

JimDunlop2 · Joined: 31 Jan 2003 Posts: 2286 Location: Japan

Well... I'm sure that a couple hundred years of isolation don't help matters any either for the cause of concern in international affairs... Although judging by the numbers of anti-Iraq war protesters this spring, even in small towns, you'd think that every Japanese citizen is well versed in international politics.... Smile

Here's an interesting one for you.... Just today I had a private class with an adult student (four years my senior) and the textbook we are using has a chapter on "Where were you born" and asks the question: "Do you know any famous people that live in your country that were born somewhere else?" So we spent some time trying to brainstorm names of famous gaijin in Japan (like Bob Sapp)...

So I asked him if he knew that it was possible that Japan's own Royal Family may be partly imported -- from Korea? He just laughed at me and dismissed the notion as ridiculous.... However, Emperor Akihito said that the Chronicle of Japan says that Emperor Kanmu's mother (9th century A.D.) was actually a woman of the Korean Royal Family of Paekche.

Go figure.... Confused

TokyoLiz · Joined: 16 Jan 2003 Posts: 1548 Location: Tokyo, Japan

I have a hunch that, because of the difficulty of learning kanji, most kids don't have access to much material that tells them about the world in general. By the time a student finishes elementary school, they've learned a certain amount of prescribed kanji, but not quite enough to read a newspaper or literature. They depend on texts, such as comic books, to fill them in with furigana, the miniscule kana above kanji in a lot of school books and comic books.

When I was just 6 years old, I picked up the newspaper in English and started reading and asking questions about current events. When I was struggling with reading in elementary school (long story) my parents got an encyclopedia set, which I slowly read through from cover to cover, all 29 volumes. My brother and I became fact junkies, looking up obscure stuff about ancient egypt, scientific discoveries and world events to amuse ourselves. We became motivated to read.

Kids here in Japan just don't have access to reading material. I'm finding the kanji barrier very frustrating - the European languages I've learned, French and German, are accessible and readable, thanks to the alphabet. My fluency and comprehension in Japanese is hindered by the difficulty of kanji. I'm still unable to read a newspaper even though I've been learning Japanese for almost ten years.

JimDunlop2 · Joined: 31 Jan 2003 Posts: 2286 Location: Japan

Interesting perspective, Liz... If that's true, then we should see the same phenomenon with students from China, Taiwan, Hong, etc.... Basically any nation that uses ideographs to write their language....

Perhaps someone who has spent some time in China (or similar area) can comment on this..... Do you find a similar "knowledge vacuum"?

As an aside, Liz... You'd think that with today's world of multimedia, kids would be exposed to more info in other forms too -- like TV documentaries & stuff... Formats that don't require kanji. Surely schoolbook publishers must realize kids need to know things but don't always know the kanji for it...

I dunno. Do they have much educational TV in Japan? All I've seen are variety shows and talk shows so far....

Jess_Laoshi · Posted: Sat Sep 06, 2003 1:51 pm Post subject:

I don't know if its the language. I spent some time in China, and I found that (imo) the main thing holding the students back was the school system's total emphasis on exams. In China (and isn't Japan similar in this regard?) you learn in school what you need to learn to pass the exam. The kids are constantly taking exams, even throughout college. Because you cannot succeed in school without succeeding on these exams, a lot of info becomes extraneous if it isn't something that could appear on the exam.

The Chinese school system does not allow for a lot of creativity or flexibility, nor does it encourage students to discover more about the world around them. It prepares them to do well on standardized tests. Getting into college is entirely dependent on these test scores, and high school kids spend such extreme amounts of time and energy studying for them that I doubt they consider the gaps in their knowledge which result from their slavery to the exam system.

TokyoLiz · Joined: 16 Jan 2003 Posts: 1548 Location: Tokyo, Japan

Jess , I'm sure that the exams are a contributing factor to the Japanese kids' attitudes about knowledge, but I think that the language itself is also a barrier.

How about China, Taiwan etc? Good question, Jim.

homersimpson · Joined: 14 Feb 2003 Posts: 569 Location: Kagoshima

I doubt this lack of general knowledge is unique to Japan. Most high school kids in the States don't know who the Secretary of State is or how to find Iraq on a world map. The world is a changing place and despite a seeming emphasis on education in the industrialized nations, a lot is meaningless rhetoric from respective governments. Attention spans have shortened ... and a constant need to be entertained preocuppies a great many of us.

JimDunlop2 · Joined: 31 Jan 2003 Posts: 2286 Location: Japan

homersimpson: you're absolutely right. I shall go satisfy my need to be entertained immediately. I got "Bushido: The Soul of Japan" by Inazo Nitobe out from the library and it's just begging to be read... Wink

Mark-O · Posted: Mon Sep 08, 2003 2:16 pm Post subject:

I've always marvelled at the American sense of geography (beautifully portrayed in the original post) - learn all those states and capitals etc. and have no idea whatsoever of anywhere outside of their own 'great nation', as it were.

Dr.J · Joined: 09 May 2003 Posts: 304 Location: usually Japan

I'm not sure it is the language. Kids tend to ask their parents, or listen to the news rather than use written material to find out about things. I think it's stretching it a little to suggest that the language is a significant barrier to learning about the world.

As for general knowledge, most of those questions are from a "north
american in Japan" perspective. All that stuff about Perry etc.

The "exam" theory has a little more substance; students are taught facts and how to copy, memorise and repeat facts (which connects with kanji learning methods). When they hear a fact they don't try to connect it to other facts, they don't try to rationalise it into a system, they don't ask themselves "What does this mean?" They just create a new box for the fact and file it away.

Oversimplified somewhat, but that's how I see it.[/i]

JimDunlop2 · Joined: 31 Jan 2003 Posts: 2286 Location: Japan

Dr.J : Not to be contrary, but how is asking the number of prefectures that Japan has , or asking when the Edo period was "from a "North
American in Japan" perspective."?

As for the exam theory that several people have mentioned.... I can buy that.... But it's interesting that you would not see at least some of the questions I asked on any exam.... I would be really interested to see an outline of a jr. high and a high school curriculum in the major subjects: Japanese, English, science, social studies, math.... from grades 7 to 12....

Mosley · Joined: 17 Jan 2003 Posts: 158

It used to blow me away how Japanese adult students could be so clueless about their own country. Rewind to Nov. 25, 2000. I'm teaching in an eikaiwa and ask higher-level students:"What Japanese writer killed himself 30 years ago today?" Not a clue! You'd think a guy who committed seppuku while urging jieitai officers to revolt in the name of the emperor, had dozens of lovers(only one of whom was female-his wife) and was shortlisted for a Nobel Literature prize would enter the collective consciousness of a nation. Apparently not. Or the time "coup d'tat" came up in vocab. building. "Any famous coups in Japanese history?" I asked. Nope, no idea. Feb. 26, 1936 just didn't register. I used to half-joke that I was there to teach Japanese history & geography- and I'm sure as hell not a "Japanese Studies" major! I love the Japanese but sometimes talking about something more interesting than Mr. Tamori was a challenge. Here in Korea I find Koreans to be fairly well-informed about their own country. The problem lies in their overly-nationalistic outlook & their sometimes truly bizarre opinions....