Job Discussion Forums

[Vince]

What a shame. This was an interesting thread.

[Glenski]

For what it's worth, I took a poll of some Japanese teachers at the HS where I work. I asked them how they felt when they encountered a foreigner who spoke fluent or reasonably good Japanese. I also asked how they think their friends might feel.

100% of them said they would be amazed or surprised, and all in a positive way. In fact, they said they would envy the person because their own English was not up to par. Some said they would even want to know how they got that far so they could apply the studying techniques themselves to learning English.

Small sample size, I admit, but what do you want?

[Lynn]

LucySnow-I feel for you! I had a very similiar experience when I worked at an Eikaiwa. I ended up quitting after 5 months. A whole lesson would be spent on the students trying to explain and/or translate things like "tofu".

Vince- I know what you mean about the whole "saabisu" English thing. I tried to avoid those events. When I was younger and people that I didn't know well (not students) joked that they wanted to practice English with me, I'd respond, "o? baito?" I know it's rude, and I would never say that again, but I jot got so fed up with being used.

I've had a few negative experience with speaking Japanese, like the story I posted early, but I've also made many wonderful friendships in Japan (using Japanese).With every negative story I have about Japanese people I can counter it with a stupid comment made my an American about Japan.

My brother whom I love dearly. is educated and well traveled, asked if Jpes know how to use forks. I thought he was joking, but he sincere. I've also had a family friend come up to me and say, "oh? You have a Japanese boyfriend? Those Japanese men are such perverts" and she made a disgusting look on her face.

Since I do have a connection with Japan, people always feel they can come to me and talk sh*t about Japan. I'm always having to explain the behavior; it feels like I am always defending Japan.

In conclusion, I don't think one country and/or people is more racist than the other.

And I'm still not covinced that the language inferiority complex is racist.

[Vince]

[fat_chris]

This is an interesting topic for me. I know little about Japan and have never been there, but I can compare your experiences with mine.

I spent the past three years in Sichuan province in the PRC teaching at a university. In my experiences the Chinese also showed surprise that I could speak Chinese and read characters; however, they were happy with my abilities and only encouraged me to improve my level. Teachers would brag to their colleagues that I could speak Chinese. It was quite embarrassing. I never really had anyone angry at me for knowing Chinese. Actually I would try to hide it from my students for fear that they would only speak Chinese to me and not practice their English, but eventually the cat got out of the bag. The Chinese were very proud and happy that I made an effort to learn their language. That certainly helped in my relationships with collegues and supervisors.

Before living in the PRC, I spent two years teaching at several Austrian high schools. The attitudes of the Austrians were also different than those of the Japanese; that is, once they found out I was fluent in German, they would never speak to me in English. They were thrilled that I could speak German and would never dumb it down for me.

I find it odd that were one in a foreign country and could speak that country's language, the locals wouldn't look favorably on it; I've never had this experience. I was reading posts in the Korean forums earlier and one bloke also stated that the more Korean one knew, the more hostile some of the Koreans could be.

[cafebleu]

Good point from somebody who said they weren`t sure whether you could call negative Japanese attitudes towards foreigners speaking and/or reading and writing their language `racist`.

Maybe the best term is racial insularity on the part of most Japanese who behave this way. However, I do think the Japanese `friend` who accused his foreign friend (behind the friend`s back of course) of `stealing the Japanese language` can be said to be racist.

However, I am genuinely surprised by the insecurity of any number of Japanese people towards a foreigner who can speak and/or read and write Japanese. I have experienced this too often to think it is a few isolated incidents. For me it comes down to two reasons -

The ethnocentricity and racial insularity of Japanese culture in general. This is why there is so much insecurity when a foreign person can use their language - after all, if the Japanese are unique, their culture is unique and their language is unique (according to a widespread view in Japan), then how come a foreigner can understand Japanese? There is the fear that Japan and the Japanese are not unique after all.

I also maintain (and I think any number of posters with real as opposed to fantasy Japanese experience) that the language issue falls within the `Gaijin are fine as long as they are outsiders and know their place` mentality of Japanese society in general. A Japanese speaking foreigner threatens this according to such narrow thinking.

The inadequacy many Japanese people seem to feel regarding their English ability. Then again, if I had spent so long learning Japanese at school, college and sometimes private schools and could not move beyond very basic greetings or a few grammar points, I would feel inadequate too. But whether I would manifest this by habitually putting down the person who can speak my country`s language is another thing altogether.

The reverse side of this is a certain egotistical attitude some Japanese have towards English learning. They will ignore your relatively decent Japanese and tell themselves and others that you cannot speak it, yet at the same time tell me proudly about their spouse or boyfriend/girlfriend or friend or relative who is becoming good at English. The person in question can use a few stock phrases of English. Bravo to them but why is that played up and daily fluency in Japanese from foreigners dismissed?

To me this is where Japan is really unique!

[cafebleu]

Sorry to have been confusing - I gave more than two reasons regarding why I think there is this Japanese attitude towards foreigners who know their language.

And I meant to say -

(and I think any number of posters with real as opposed to fantasy Japanese experience would tend to agree with this).

That`s all folks.

[fat_chris]

A friend of mine who spent two years in Japan and three years in the PRC made this personal observation.

He noted that the Chinese would constantly point out: "ah, you're a foreigner."
In his personal experience the Japanese would point out: "ah, you're not Japanese."

A bit of a telling difference in my mind.

[fat_chris]

In my personal experience the Chinese would sometimes say to me, "you are half-Chinese!" (which I found to be silly but I guess a compliment of my attention to the culture and language).

Regarding my friend, he stated that they would include: "you're not Japanese...and you never will be."

[Vince]

[shmooj]

[fat_chris]

shmooj,

I like it. Many thanks for the idea. When I return to the PRC, I'll use that line and try to pick up some extra $$$ just by chatting in the streets.

[Erikku]

[BradS]

Just want to add that there is a double standard going on here. Most Japanese people I've met here thing that we should all learn Japanese but when we do they don't understand why and will speak to us in English as they think Japanese is a useless language "Most countries speak English. You should speak English" or the other "It sounds strange because you're white".

[chi-chi-]

Interesting thread.
I just have a question.
Has anyone ever had the OPPOSITE happen to them? Say, you don't know the local language yet, but people will ONLY want to use that language exclusively with you, and NOT English?
Just wondering, cuz I've had this happen to me in three different countries.
I felt very included but awkward that I didn't understand, and at times didn't know HOW to tell them that I did not understand.