Job Discussion Forums

DirtGuy · Joined: 28 Dec 2004 Posts: 529

SanChong:

I go right back to my original question. My comparison of illegals coming here to work and a college-educated person going to TW just to make money is not as far off as you think.

Your assertion that any career in the US that requires a diploma will guarantee the worker a higher standard of living and more money than one could ever make teaching English in TW is, IMHO, not correct. Sorry guy, this is just not the case. Have you no clue what Silicon Valley went through during the dotcom meltdown? Does the idea of $100K/year engineers seeking $13/hour jobs at Home Depot after getting laid off have any resonance with you? Happens all the time. These people can become consultants, right? Sure they can but there still has to be work for them somewhere (and there simply may be no work to be had anywhere) and what about that little matter of health insurance? Does $600+ per month for medical/disability sound high? That's what I pay just for myself and without any vision or dental. Imagine what a family costs.

You talk about a union janitor with benefits. Do you really think all janitors are in unions and that they have benefits? How long has it been since you have lived in the States or followed what is happening here?

Still think I'm full of s---? OK, I'll give you a real life example. My brother graduated from Berkeley, with honors, with an ME degree. He worked in Silicon Valley until he was 43. His constant employment history was one of making fantastic money (albeit working 50-60 hour weeks) and then getting laid off. All the money he saved during the time he worked had to be used to fund an extremely frugal lifestyle during his times of unemployment. Every single cent. Had he not bought a small house, he would have wound up with nothing after working for 20 years. His experience is so common that it is considered the norm for this area.

Now let's say my brother worked in TW for 20 years and managed to save a minimum of $1,000USD. Can we agree that it is easy to save that much each month in TW? Add into that equation medical benefits, housing allowance, increases in pay as he got more experienced, working less than 40 hours per week, vacation time, etc. He could have bought 2 or 3 houses with the money he saved and never once been out of work during that entire time.

So what happened to my bro'? Sold his house and everything he owned and moved to Alaska. Went back to school to get a CE degree and is now working full-time. He has essentially started his life all over again but will be in grave danger of age discrimination as soon as he gets into his 50s.

I think the biggest point of contention between our views is it is not about how much money you make. It is more about how much you save. Having lived and worked in both countries, the possibility to live a decent life and save quite a bit of cash seems to be more in one's favor in TW as an EFL teacher than it does for many, many people in any type of job in this country. Taiwan also seems to stack up well against other Asian countries when you look at income vs. cost of living. So if I am shopping around for where I can make a buck, I am really not all that different from an illegal coming to the US in order to make money.

DirtGuy

SanChong · Joined: 22 Nov 2005 Posts: 335

Well put. Good points all around.

Yes, it's possible that a person working as a teacher in Asia will be better off than they would have been back home. However, the vast majority of the time, the person who stayed in their home (Western) country will be better off.

Also, I wasn't saying that people shouldn't care about money. Moreso, I was saying that it surprises me that someone would choose to live in a different country (ie, Korea VS. Taiwan) for the sake of a couple thousand bucks. It just seems to go against the point of being here, in many ways.

markholmes · Joined: 21 Jun 2004 Posts: 661 Location: Wengehua

I think often people come to Taiwan for both, to have an adventure and to earn and save money. For me it was a chance to travel, broaden my horizons, learn a language and yes, save some money. Ultimately I did not save as much as I had thought as I spent a fair amount of the savings backpacking around Asia. But hey, I had a great time.

Seeburn wrote:

jason_seeburn · Joined: 26 Apr 2003 Posts: 399 Location: Toronto

DirtGuy · Joined: 28 Dec 2004 Posts: 529

markholmes:

Bit of misunderstanding here. Companies merge or go belly-up here constantly and management people get booted just like the peons do. My brother never made $100K per year nor would he have unless he had gone into management. You usually have to be a computer person in order to make that much as an engineer. His salary was more in the 50-70K range. That still sounds like a lot but it isn't. He did save quite a bit of money while he was working but then it all went out to support himself during the times he was out of work.

What you and others simply do not understand is the cost of living in the San Francisco Bay Area. That is why I responded to SanChong that it is not what you make but what you wind up with. People here make fantastic money. My day job is as a landscape contractor and, depending on the particular job, I can easily make $50 to 80 USD per hour. All my jobs are paid by the hour. Not bad money for digging holes in the ground, right? Dead wrong. I do not work for 3 months out of the year but the outrageous cost of living never stops. It simply costs more to live here than most other places in the US. Only a handfull of localities are on par with living costs in the Bay Area. Beverly Hills and Manhattan are the only two I can think of off the top of my head.

A real quick example: I'm selling one of my houses later this summer. It is the absolute cheapest house in the neighborhood and on the low end of prices in Silicon Valley. I freely admit the place is a dump and will probably not stand up to the next Big One (earthquake) when it hits. It's only a 2/1.5 with 900 square feet and a postage-stamp lot. It should be on the market no more than 1 week and sell for at least $620K. A first-time buyer will probably purchase it and put down anywhere from 0 - 5%. Do you have any clue what the full payment is on such a loan? And housing is only one component of the high cost of living here.

Let's take a look at what I use as a benchmark savings rate in TW: $1,000USD per month. While not terribly difficult to save in TW, this amount is virtually impossible to save in the Bay Area. In the circles I move, I have never heard of anyone or even a working couple saving this much money. The cost of living is simply too high.

Keep in mind we are talking about "saving" as if just for a rainy day fund. People here must also save for retirement, college for the kids, medical savings accounts, etc. in addition to emergency money. Factor in payments for medical insurance if your company does not provide it and you are lucky enough to be accepted by an insurance company and the high salaries people make here are gone in an instant.

You were right to pick up on the high numbers in my posting but keep in mind that is only half the equation. If you do not look at the cost side of things then there is no context for judging the affordability of an area. This is where I disagree with SanChong. He is right in saying the money you earn with a college degree in always higher in the US than in TW. In gross terms he is correct. But once you factor in the cost of living, teaching English is TW still looks pretty good.

DirtGuy

jason_seeburn · Joined: 26 Apr 2003 Posts: 399 Location: Toronto

Northwood · Joined: 08 Nov 2005 Posts: 66

Wish you would all stop talking about how much money you can save. Making me feel really guilty and stupid.

Miyazaki · Joined: 12 Jul 2005 Posts: 635 Location: My Father's Yacht

I disagree with San Chong.

Asia is a great place for young people to come over and make and save big money.

When people say, "You don't go into teaching for the money...." I always disagree with that.

Pop Fly · Joined: 15 Feb 2003 Posts: 429

dangerousapple · Joined: 18 Apr 2006 Posts: 292

the 50NT note was used up until 5 years ago (probably more, don't really remember) when they introduced the 2-color coin. They had an enormous problem with counterfeits, so they changed it again to the 1-color coin seen today.

Pop Fly · Joined: 15 Feb 2003 Posts: 429

Aristotle · Joined: 16 Jan 2003 Posts: 1388 Location: Taiwan

jason_seeburn:
Glad to see you back. It has been a few years, I was beginning to think you had given up on Taiwan entirely. Please don't, we need really need intelligent young people over here to make any positive change happen.
The Taiwan dollar has dropped and will continue to do so until full and open trade with China is permitted. Unfortunately, if that ever happens, it is at least five to ten years away.
You do remember that old saying about how the more things change the more they stay the same. Nothing has changed except the pay, which has continued to go down. You can still make a living but it is a lot harder work and you get a lot less for it.
Good luck and keep posting!
A.

DirtGuy · Joined: 28 Dec 2004 Posts: 529

Uh, Aristotle, isn't that a bit of a simplistic approach to relative currency values? As far as I know, the NT is an openly traded currency and as such is affected by many, many things. Cannot speak for other country's currencies, but the dollar is dropping against the NT due to things such as our deficit, inflation, negative savings rate, etc. Given that TW has enormous foreign exchange reserves, it is always going to be a fairly strong currency. Quite amazing considering the size of the place and few resources other than its people.

I really hope you are not comparing the NT against the yuan. Say what you will about TW but the fact remains that as a free-floating currency the NT is given a value by the worldwide economic community. China, on the other hand, is probably the biggest and most blatant currency manipulator on the planet. The yuan is pegged at a fixed and artificial rate against the USD and not allowed to freely float. Were it allowed to float, the yuan would in all likelihood soar in value. This would make Chinese goods much more expensive and not allow the leaders to boast about their "miracle" economy. Just another example of mainland deception and why things are never as they appear over there.

DirtGuy

SanChong · Joined: 22 Nov 2005 Posts: 335